Engine oil question TD5

Ps my dads old discovery td5 has done 204k... 104.000 hard miles has been on shell helix 10w40... Starts on the button with no blow by

That's the reason I now use it in mine

Most others td5 are rattling and hard to start at that mileage

Don't know if its imagination but my 120K miles Defender sounds better with 5-40 than 5-30, maybe I just want it to.

raywin said:

Don't know if its imagination but my 120K miles Defender sounds better with 5-40 than 5-30, maybe I just want it to.

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Next time try a good 10w40

Jon lad a well known member ran his td5 on this for 7 years and his is heavily tuned to

You won't go back

Discodevon said:

Next time try a good 10w40

Jon lad a well known member ran his td5 on this for 7 years and his is heavily tuned to

You won't go back

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Because my cam shaft is damaged I need to take the head off, and because it has done 120K I thought I might make a party of it and whip the engine out and give it some attention, one other thought which has been on my mind is the famous oil pump bolt, I want to be sure that is 100%.
So when its done and run in I think I may go for 10W-40 an engine like this needs some protection.

raywin said:

Because my cam shaft is damaged I need to take the head off, and because it has done 120K I thought I might make a party of it and whip the engine out and give it some attention, one other thought which has been on my mind is the famous oil pump bolt, I want to be sure that is 100%.
So when its done and run in I think I may go for 10W-40 an engine like this needs some protection.

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which cam / ive found injector cam and roller followers heavily worn on a few engines during head gasket jobs

jamesmartin said:

which cam / ive found injector cam and roller followers heavily worn on a few engines during head gasket jobs

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Yes it's the injector cam, It is a strange thing one lobe is damaged with a bad mark just below the peak of the cam which runs axially across the lobe, the roller was marked but I put one on as a stop gap and that has not deteriorate, other lobes and rollers are OK.
I managed to get a second hand 15P cam shaft complete with rockers and shaft so I will need to change the whole lot, but I will combine it with a re build on the whole engine when I have more time on my hands next year.
One Thing I wondered and James you may know if the lash adjusters are getting old could that allow the rocker to rattle and break through the hard surfacing of the cam shaft?

raywin said:

Yes it's the injector cam, It is a strange thing one lobe is damaged with a bad mark just below the peak of the cam which runs axially across the lobe, the roller was marked but I put one on as a stop gap and that has not deteriorate, other lobes and rollers are OK.
I managed to get a second hand 15P cam shaft complete with rockers and shaft so I will need to change the whole lot, but I will combine it with a re build on the whole engine when I have more time on my hands next year.
One Thing I wondered and James you may know if the lash adjusters are getting old could that allow the cam to rattle and break through the herd surfacing of the cam shaft?

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i havent seen that yet,but have found a lot of seized lash adjusters which is not noticeable if they are left in situ ,though worn ones can rattle, its worth checking each by squeezing slowly in a vice with soft jaws

Discodevon said:

10w40 is better in my opinion for td5 in England... If you're further north than say Yorkshire then 5w40

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The oil viscosity at running temperature will be the same though between 5W/40 he has in and 10W/40 oil. The 5W/40 though will flow better at startup - if you can get it then it's better oil than 10w/40 regardless of where you are.

Discodevon said:

PD oils are all c3... It's not needed in a td5... The cams are much stronger on the td5 then they are the pd engine...

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Indeed, as I said a chunky thing, but never a bad idea and PD oil is not that much more expensive maybe £3 a gallon...

discomania said:

Although the TD5 has a separate cam for the injectors and it is a nice big chunky thing, have you ever looked at them? The approach on the cam lobe is like a cliff, this engine will benefit from a decent oil like a PD spec oil.

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raywin said:

Don't know if its imagination but my 120K miles Defender sounds better with 5-40 than 5-30, maybe I just want it to.

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5W40 would be a good option, it will behave the same as a 10W40 when warmed up but make for slightly easier cold starting.

chris-the-gerbil said:

The oil viscosity at running temperature will be the same though between 5W/40 he has in and 10W/40 oil. The 5W/40 though will flow better at startup - if you can get it then it's better oil than 10w/40 regardless of where you are.

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My oil pressure gauge shows that with 10w40 it gets up to pressure quicker than with 5w40 when starting from cold thats another good reason to use 10w40

Also I do believe letting the engine idle for a minute before driving is extremely beneficial for engine life

Discodevon said:

Also I do believe letting the engine idle for a minute before driving is extremely beneficial for engine life

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Yes - I am very cold start conscious more in the cold though. I will often start a car, then put things in the boot etc. lock the house etc. then go, this gives it 30/40 seconds before I drive it, if I drive it immediately then I will get it out the drive on very low throttle/tick-over and go along the road at as low revs as I can.

Once the needle starts to budge I will open it up a little bit but I will never give it hard acceleration from cold until it is actually warmed up. Easier in my petrol car I must say!

Another thing I tend not to do is start and stop the cars when cold too much. I know people who are terrible for starting a car move it a meter, stop it, clean it, start it move it another meter stop it, and might do that 6 times in a row. Then wonder why their battery is sluggish.

Discodevon said:

Also I do believe letting the engine idle for a minute before driving is extremely beneficial for engine life

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A particular American engine manufacturer, I think possibly Detroit Diesel used to have to be up to full engine oil pressure before they would inject any fuel, so you would put the key in and turn and it would spin over maybe 4 or 5 times then start but only once the engine had pressure back in the system. They used to believe it was worth sacrificing the starter motor a bit to improve lubrication on start - starters were also well priced and easy to access.

Discodevon said:

My oil pressure gauge shows that with 10w40 it gets up to pressure quicker than with 5w40 when starting from cold thats another good reason to use 10w40

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The oil pressure will rise quicker because the oil is more viscous - that is not necessarily a good thing. At startup you have no oil at all anywhere and need to push it round the system as fast as possible - you need the oil to be as thin as possible in order to do that.

up north where it gets mega cold during winter I can see benefits of using the thinner stuff... But down here in the south it's really rare it gets below 0 degrees so we opt for the thicker stuff

AT a cold startup you could be in Tunisia, and the oil will still be too thick to adequately lubricate the engine. You choose the 100C viscosity to be what the engine designers specifiy and the W value wants to be as low as you can feasibly get it.

Alright, so the general opinion seems to be that the C3 spec low ash 5w/40 will be OK in my TD5 so l'll leave it in.

This is all very interesting, but can someone educate me a bit more about the PD engine? I've done a bit of Googling, but I can't yet find a particularly informative site. Just bit's a pieces from different forums. I've gleaned that VW created the PD system. Did Ford create the common rail system? I've read VW invented PD to compete with the common rail system because they didn't want to pay the licence to use CR. I'm still unclear about the difference in operation of PD injectors to standard injectors, are they 'powered' or just with a spring? . I'm wondering what LR engines used the PD system.
I'm not saying the oil discussion wasn't interesting, just trying to broaden my mind.

Al2O3 said:

This is all very interesting, but can someone educate me a bit more about the PD engine? I've done a bit of Googling, but I can't yet find a particularly informative site. Just bit's a pieces from different forums. I've gleaned that VW created the PD system. Did Ford create the common rail system? I've read VW invented PD to compete with the common rail system because they didn't want to pay the licence to use CR. I'm still unclear about the difference in operation of PD injectors to standard injectors, are they 'powered' or just with a spring? . I'm wondering what LR engines used the PD system.
I'm not saying the oil discussion wasn't interesting, just trying to broaden my mind.

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The Pumpe Duse - PD is just a unit injector, I believe the Pumpe Duse was developed by VAG. Others make unit injectors such as Delphi for the TD5, Scania use(d) them in some of their trucks etc... They were a British invention and have been about since before the war as I know the American's used them on some of their Submarines.

The engine is just like any other diesel engine except that the injectors are mechanically struck by a cam lobe on the main cam shaft or a separate shaft driven by the timing system. The TD5 has a big chunky injector shaft which is a good thing, however the PD engines used a single shaft which meant the lobes got a bit narrow and thus the pressure increased on the contact surfaces demanding a very high shear oil.

Basically it's like the injection pump piston and injector rolled into one with originally electromechanical metering then piezo. The lobe smacks the plunger which drives the piston down and injects diesel, the metering is controlled via a spill valve, so for example on idle a small charge of diesel is used so the valve remains open for longer, diesel spills out then the valve closes and the remaining diesel charge is driven down and the injector injects, during this stroke they can also open the spill metering valve to cut an injection stroke down a bit - which is why piezo controlled injectors are now used as they are faster.

Al2O3 said:

This is all very interesting, but can someone educate me a bit more about the PD engine? I've done a bit of Googling, but I can't yet find a particularly informative site. Just bit's a pieces from different forums. I've gleaned that VW created the PD system. Did Ford create the common rail system? I've read VW invented PD to compete with the common rail system because they didn't want to pay the licence to use CR. I'm still unclear about the difference in operation of PD injectors to standard injectors, are they 'powered' or just with a spring? . I'm wondering what LR engines used the PD system.
I'm not saying the oil discussion wasn't interesting, just trying to broaden my mind.

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Sorry I forgot the other part of your question regarding standard injectors. The original type like diesels have used for over a century are more or less just a housing with a injector needle and a nozzle with essentially the needle held closed with a spring, the injection pump creates the pressure with a driven piston or pistons, what actually causes the injector to open is the shockwave of the charge of diesel being fired down the injection lines. The pressure is so high that the needle jumps up or rather vibrates up and down very fast releasing the charge of diesel in an atomised mist.

Then you get common rail injectors, which are different again, they sit connected to the pressurised common rail and the diesel pressure surrounds the whole injector needle within the housing, the needle again held shut with a spring or rather biased shut with the spring, when they want that injector to fire they open a electromechanical/piezo valve, this causes an imbalance of pressure at the back of the needle and the huge constant pressure from the rail drives the needle up and allows diesel to spray out the nozzle, once the required diesel charge has been delivered, the valve closes, the pressure equalises and because of the spring the needle comes to rest in the closed position. They work the same way as a solenoid water valve like they use on washers and boilers etc.

There are other types as well, injectors that use pressurised feed and return diesel lines with remote spill control etc.