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Engine conversion

Discussion in 'Series Land Rovers' started by Michael1.5, Mar 27, 2010.

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  1. Michael1.5

    Michael1.5 New Member

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    Does anyone now any good websites with information on how to swap a Land Rover Series III Safari engine with a discovery 200TDI engine and has anyone got any tips.

    It would be really helpful to know as i am a young enthusiast

    Many Thanks
     
  2. The Mad Hat Man

    The Mad Hat Man Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

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    yes thanks.

    :googleit: is yo friend.
     
  3. Sean

    Sean Banned

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  4. Teflon

    Teflon New Member

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    best tip.... dont!
    not a goood match in a series, people do it cos they bolt to the siii bell no hasle just a bit of bashing mounts to make them line up, and the motors are cheap & plentiful at the mo, BUT....
    power delivery is a bit hard and the siii box already weak, so they can destroy them pretty quick (as can almost any 'alternative' engine tbh, but still)
    But, if you do stick one in, the gearing is the next 'problem', SIII ratios being fine for the power the 23.25's have, and giving ratios that will just about squeek them upt to the sort of velocities they have the power to pull, at teh revs they can turn.
    TDi dont turn any faster and makes more power lower down, so in the SIII its woe-fully under geared, and they just dont go any faster for the extra power they got, cos they dont have enough gears to put it to use.
    So, you start messing around in the transmission area, and look at OD's and rangie diffs and 'stuff' and it all starts getting a bit vexing, by the time you decide that fitting the LT77 'box that was originally on the back of the TDi when hauled out of the disco would be a good way to go to get 25% lift in gearing an OD would offer, from the 5th gear and a stronger box to match the motor.... only THEN the LT230 X-fer doesn't have the same drop set ratios, and without 3.5:1 diffs you loose the benefit of the 5th gear..... While you gain perm four wheel drive, and discovber you ought to have different joints in the front axles.... which after much head scratching brings you back to looking at that scrapped disco agaion and wondering whether you could fit the whole axles.... which you can, with even more hassle, changing steering and chassis and much else, ULTIMATELY concluding with a leaf sprung defender series bodied disco as the end result, a car that is neither fish nor foul, highly contentiouse in the eyes of the licencing authority over original ident and registration rules, construction & use regs and something insurance co's are very unlikely to be happy with if you give them the full story...... cost a lot of money, blood sweat and tears, to get you something that is not 'quite' as good as a stock 90/110/Defender you could have bought for a lot less money and an awful less hassle, IF you even get that far.....
    Yeah, they drop in, yeah, people do it.... but what they DONT tell you is where thier little ideas were not 'quite' so great as they hopes, or where the niggles lie.
    and when they do, you start to realise that 'sorting' a TDi conversion takes you right into the myriad possibilites of a full on Hybrid build, and hassle after hassle to make each mod to 'fix' the last actually work.
    So, best tip I can give, is dont do it.
    Look at the alternatives.
    If you really WANT a TDi powered coiler, get rid of Series and go buy an old 90/110 to convert with a dead disco engine and 'bits', becouse they fit, basically. Or buy genuine 'Defender', and not have to lift a spanner.
    If you like the series, stick with it, live with the limitations it has, or do something more sympathetic.
    Plenty of other engine conversions for them, but teh stock motor has a lot going for it, if you give it a chance.
    Of the more worthy candidates, 2.5NAD is a worthy choice for an daily useable oil burner with a bit more poke and acceptable ecconomy; looks like it was designed to live in that engine bay (it was!) and doesn't lead to teh hassles the TDI does.....
    Elsewhile, as said, google TDi conversion and there will be gazzillions of hits; probably one for every dead dizzy pillaged of its engine........
     
  5. Beneagles

    Beneagles Well-Known Member Full Member

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  6. fenby1976

    fenby1976 New Member

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    I disagree with Teflon on this. My 200tdi SIII has been good so far. It's been 3 months on the road with this engine and I've done 6 greenlaning trips, towed a 2 ton trailer a couple of times and used it as an everyday vehicle. No broken gearbox diffs or halfshafts. I think the series transmismission should be OK with the 200Tdi as long as the driver has a bit of mechanical sympathy. I don't give it full power in 1st or 2nd gear and I try to be smooth when pulling away keeping the revs low. An important point with this conversion is to use a bowden cable to link the accelerator pedal to the fuel injection pump, otherwise the vehicle will kangaroo which is definitely going to be bad for the transmission. On 7.50 16 tyres and standard gearing with no overdrive mine will do about 85 MPH but it's on the limiter.

    The maximum torque figure for the 200Tdi is close to 200 ftlb and the 2 1/4 petrol engine is I think somewhere around 125 ftlb, but these are continuous torque figures. If you rev a 2 1/4 petrol engine up to 4500 RPM and drop the clutch then way more than way more than 200 ftlb will be put into the gearbox because of the energy stored in the flywheel. So by my reckoning a 200Tdi engine used carefully should be easier on the gearbox than a 2 1/4 petrol engine used carelessly. Somebody with real self restraint could even limit themselves to only going flat out in 4th gear, which should be fine as the power does not go through the layshaft.

    Those who are concerned about overstressing the transmission could just reduce the boost pressure and or not use an intercooler.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2010
  7. Beneagles

    Beneagles Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Bowden cable? can you expand upon that please? :confused:
     
  8. Teflon

    Teflon New Member

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    sleeved spring wire cable, like you have on bicycles for the brakes and gears and 'stuff', amongst a million other applications.

    As opposed to the rod & lever linkage used on the SIII for the throttle originally.... not sure why it should make such a difference, but there speaks the voice of experience

    ........disaagreeing with me, but confirming that stock gearing is too low...... and motor tops out at 85 with the governor against the stops!

    and airing thier fears and paranoia about how fragile the box may be handling the TDi power!

    :)

    as said, often done, BUT, its not a great match.

    Power delivery is still a bit brutal and the gearinhg too low.

    Stick to a TDi against a series 'box and it will work OK ish, but you;ll be frustrated by the lack of gearing letting you put the power to use, and the need to apply caution against it doing harm....

    Its when you try and sort that 'niggle'and try and do more stuff to get everything you might from the engine that the problems start, and ramp up very quickly into major mechanical maledies.
     
  9. fenby1976

    fenby1976 New Member

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    Teflon,
    When I said I disagreed with you, I meant I disagreed with your tip that the 200Tdi conversion is best not done. I would agree that the series gearbox is not ideal for handling the torque of the 200Tdi, but that's not to say it's not a worthwhile conversion. It's the most easily available and most easily fitted modern diesel suitable for a series Land-Rover. It's designed for a 4x4, parts availability is likely to be good well into the future and there is more power. I might change my mind over the coming months if I get lots of problems with the transmission, but so far so good. As for the gearing, again it's not ideal, but I find it O.K. We don't have motorways over in this neck of the woods so the gearing is not much of an issue for me. I'd rather retain as much of the character of a series vehicle as possible, so keeping the series box does that. I'd guess that most series Land-Rovers don't get used much anyway so even if the life of the gearbox with a 200TDi bolted on is 25% of what it would be with a 2 1/4 petrol, the box should still last for many years. You say that I am paranoid that my gearbox is not strong enough. By the definition of paranoia, does that not mean that my fears are actually unfounded?

    As for the accelerator linkage: I did mine with a simple linkage, and the vehicle tends to kangaroo. What I think is happening is that as the engine moves forwards on it's mounts when under load which causes the angle of the accelerator lever on the pump to be altered which reduces fuelling which causes the engine to move backwards which then causes the the fuelling to be increased and so on.. That is an oscillation begins. Using a bowden cable (as is done on the Discovery installation) will mean that the angle of the accelerator lever on the pump will not be affected by movement of the engine. That's my theory anyway. I'm going to see if a cable solves the problem now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2010
  10. fenby1976

    fenby1976 New Member

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    I've converted from a linkage to an accelerator cable now and the kangarooing problem is solved. It is tempting to connect the accelerator pedal to the fuel pump using a linkage (as suggested in the Glencoyne engineering website), because it's so easy, but it's well worth the bit of extra effort to install a cable instead.
     
  11. StuntmanAd

    StuntmanAd New Member

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    I would love to see some photos of this cable set up Fenby :) especially how you mounted it to the pedal end.


    I hooked a push rod linakge up to my pug 2.3 engine and it kangarood so badly it was terrible :mad:
     
  12. fenby1976

    fenby1976 New Member

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    No probs: I'll sort out a photo tomorrow. I used the disco cable and modified one of the levers on the accelerator shaft running transversely along the bulkhead behind the engine. I bent a piece of flat bar into a u shape, drilled holes through it welded it onto one of the series accelerator levers and clamped the lever over on the passenger side of the shaft. I folded and drilled some 3 x 40mm flat bar and bolted it to the bulkhead to support the outer accelerator cable.

    Have you managed to find some series engine mounts yet?

    I'll put up some photos of the mods I made to the sump too. Put some spacers above and below the rubber engine mounts to lift the front of the engine, otherwise the crank pulley will hit the front axle when you go over big bumps.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2010
  13. ciderman

    ciderman Active Member

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    hi
    i have put a 2.5 Di transit engine in in lieu of the 2.25.
    installation? neat,
    power, a little bit more.
    noise, same.
    throttle response, superb.
    economy? very good.
    and it doesnt leak oil, starts first time with no heater plugs, and they are cheap and reliable. have a look on DIESEL BOB site for info on the engine.
    AND, this is the WONDERFUL bit......
    THE HEATER WORKS, YES A S 3 HEATER REALLY WORKS WITH SUCH A GOOD FLOW OF WATER. Yes it burns your legs, i am so pleased.
     
  14. StuntmanAd

    StuntmanAd New Member

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    @Fenby

    Yes mate I got hold of some Series mounts off ebay. My 265/75/16 Special tracks are rubbing the inner of the back arches when articulating (tbh noticed it more when going around roundabouts :p) so I'm going to fit some 1 tonne lift shackles. I was wondering if you think this would also cure the front axle/crank pulley problem?




    Adam
     
  15. fenby1976

    fenby1976 New Member

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    I've never fitted one tonne shackles to an 88", but Spyderman (on here) has and says it works O.K. He's got 9.00 x 16 tyres on his 88"! There was a good thread on here some months ago discussing the pros and cons of fitting longer shackles. Personally I'm not sure if it's a good idea on the front axle without also modifying the front spring hanger, because otherwise the steering geometry and propshaft angles are going to be changed. I reckon it would solve the 200Tdi crank pulley problem if you also dropped the front bump stops an inch. I've taken some photos of my accelerator cable setup and put them on a webpage of my 200Tdi conversion which I have just made: John Bowen's Land Rover Page
     
  16. StuntmanAd

    StuntmanAd New Member

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    Our conversions are going to be sooo different :p


    You've done a proper job, I'm a half arsed kinda mechanic :eek:

    Top work
     
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