Electrical Help Needed
- Thread starter Al2O3
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Cheers, mate. I'm trying not to get too excited yet!
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- 8,079
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- East Midlands
Yes, the big fat wires at the starter are usually permanent live.
The main thing it seems to me is that the little wire that tells the solenoid to switch the current on isn't getting any juice. I'd try:
Giving the little wire's terminal on the starter 12v. If the solenoid engages and the starter tries to spin then you know the starter is OK.
Putting my meter on the terminals on the back of the ignition key switch and seeing which ones become live with the key in different positions. What you're looking for is one that becomes live when you're in the start position. If none do, then it's probably an ignition switch problem.
If the ignition switch is working, then trace the said wire from there to the starter. I believe there's a relay in the line somewhere which could also be duff, so if you've got one its worth testing or swapping for a known good one.
It's just a matter of trying to narrow down where the fault is occurring. Let's try the cheap stuff before suspecting the green box security module. Last time I changed one of those it was over £200, so let's hope it's not that.
The main thing it seems to me is that the little wire that tells the solenoid to switch the current on isn't getting any juice. I'd try:
Giving the little wire's terminal on the starter 12v. If the solenoid engages and the starter tries to spin then you know the starter is OK.
Putting my meter on the terminals on the back of the ignition key switch and seeing which ones become live with the key in different positions. What you're looking for is one that becomes live when you're in the start position. If none do, then it's probably an ignition switch problem.
If the ignition switch is working, then trace the said wire from there to the starter. I believe there's a relay in the line somewhere which could also be duff, so if you've got one its worth testing or swapping for a known good one.
It's just a matter of trying to narrow down where the fault is occurring. Let's try the cheap stuff before suspecting the green box security module. Last time I changed one of those it was over £200, so let's hope it's not that.
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Brown that's great advice and makes perfect sense because you've explained it so clearly. Many thanks.
I've been working on it since I got home from work and have just come in.
I've made progress due to realising I'd forgotten something! I'm afraid I've got the donkeys ears on a bit
I disconnected the internal alarm sensor, but it still wouldn't turn over.
The Mrs had picked up the new exhaust system from a LR specialist she passes on the work run, so I thought I'd start fitting that.
I was lying on my back fitting the down pipe and guiding it over the gearbox cross member when I noticed a cable tucked up alongside the transfer box.
I lay there for a few moments, pondering what it was, then it dawned on me!
When I put the seat box in, there were only two holes in the new battery box I had fitted. I put the earth cable through one and the live through the other. The mystery cable, which had a masking tape label on it which had blurred out, I left for later!! However, it was at this point I realised it was from the old spider box which lived in the batter box.
This is the spider box.
I had the spider bypassed years ago, but inside the box was rattling a cable connector. I forced it out, no idea how they got it in, and it fitted perfectly on the end of the cable.
Here it is attached.
Tried the ignition and the starter appeared to engage the engine. I turned it instantly off when I heard it move. ELATED
I'm still not out of the woods though!
Running out of light, I fitted the down pipe and the centre box. My system only has the one box. Put 5 litres of fuel in the tank and tried starting it properly.
I just get a resounding CLUNK.
Is that what a seized started sounds like? Foot was on clutch all the time and gear stick in neutral.
Thanks for all the help lads, it's really appreciated.
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Well, it sounds like you've got some life at the starter. Good.
The clunk could be the solenoid on the starter engaging. As the starter has been sitting around for a while there could be various things wrong with it. Electric motors I have had in the past have i) glued their bearings onto the armature with rust ii) the brushes have glued themselves onto the commutator iii) moisture has eaten away at the insulating coating on the coils so they've dropped to zero resistance and don't behave like electromagnets any more iv) build up of crud between the commutator segments has bridged them so the electricity isn't going round the armature coils. In addition, in starter solenoids there's usually a bit of copper bar that the coil pushes onto the contacts to switch the motor on (just like inside a relay, but bigger) and I've found these get a lot of verdigris build up. So if you can get it apart, maybe a clean up to bright metal might help.
The clunk could be the solenoid on the starter engaging. As the starter has been sitting around for a while there could be various things wrong with it. Electric motors I have had in the past have i) glued their bearings onto the armature with rust ii) the brushes have glued themselves onto the commutator iii) moisture has eaten away at the insulating coating on the coils so they've dropped to zero resistance and don't behave like electromagnets any more iv) build up of crud between the commutator segments has bridged them so the electricity isn't going round the armature coils. In addition, in starter solenoids there's usually a bit of copper bar that the coil pushes onto the contacts to switch the motor on (just like inside a relay, but bigger) and I've found these get a lot of verdigris build up. So if you can get it apart, maybe a clean up to bright metal might help.
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Well, you've just very clearly laid out what I need to be doing on Saturday morning. Cheers, Brown. VERY much appreciated.
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Unfortunately, I'm having to go out tonight in about 45 mins!. Beer will be involved, but I'd rather be on investigating the starter motor.
Just taken it off, this is it.
The cog will turn? Tight in one direction, easier in the other. Does that mean it's ok? In which case something else must be jammed, I presume in the gear box. The engine and box were fine when I took it off the road. Could the big clunk be caused by the solenoid?
Just taken it off, this is it.
The cog will turn? Tight in one direction, easier in the other. Does that mean it's ok? In which case something else must be jammed, I presume in the gear box.
The engine and box were fine when I took it off the road. Could the big clunk be caused by the solenoid?Take the end cover off the opposite end from the Bendix - ( the right hand end in your photo ) and reveal the brushes, commutator etc... see if the brushes etc are all gummed up with "stuff" - like @Brown said in #25, above.
your clunk is most likely the magnetic core of the solenoid doing its job of engaging the Bendix, but the electrical contacts within may be gunged up too...
Good explanation, including pictures and diagrams of how pre-engaged starters work here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_(engine)#Electric
And, for an explanation of how the Bendix works, and why it "feels" like it does see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_drive
your clunk is most likely the magnetic core of the solenoid doing its job of engaging the Bendix, but the electrical contacts within may be gunged up too...
Good explanation, including pictures and diagrams of how pre-engaged starters work here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_(engine)#Electric
And, for an explanation of how the Bendix works, and why it "feels" like it does see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_drive
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Well, you mentioned that you had the problem with the clutch down so even if the gearbox were tight it wouldn't affecting the ability of the engine to turn. Maybe it's worth checking that the engine turns by hand with a spanner on the crank pulley just to make sure it's moveable.
If I were you I'd give the starter 12v and see if it turns under its own power, and then maybe clean up the contacts inside the solenoid and the commutator and give it another go.
If I were you I'd give the starter 12v and see if it turns under its own power, and then maybe clean up the contacts inside the solenoid and the commutator and give it another go.
freelance
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Perhaps you need a new battery !
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Right lads, justr got back in and I'm a bit Guinnessed up, but ok The clutch as pressed, Brown, and felt ok. However, I can't be 100% sure cos I haven't had it running. If you know what I mean. To see if it turns over I'm thnking apply 12v from the battery, earth to body of starter, the apply 12v from battery to solenoid terminal?
Disco1BFG, thank you for those links, I'll study them in the morning when I can see straight, then I'll strip the solenoid and starter.
Cheers, Gents.
Disco1BFG, thank you for those links, I'll study them in the morning when I can see straight, then I'll strip the solenoid and starter.
Cheers, Gents.
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A starter motor in good condition has a terrific amount of torque. Hence all those stories about people undoing their crank pulley bolt by putting a spanner on it and spinning the engine on the starter so that the spanner catches on the chassis and undoes the bolt. So the engine or gearbox would have to be binding very badly to defeat the starter.
Yup, give it 12v as per the previous post and see what it does.
Yup, give it 12v as per the previous post and see what it does.
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I've done that and unfortunately the starter works perfectly and smoothly.
I haven't touched the engine. All I've is drain the transfer box, change the hand brake shoes and replace the seal behind the drum, refill box. I'll put the starter back on and see if it's still jammed.
I haven't touched the engine. All I've is drain the transfer box, change the hand brake shoes and replace the seal behind the drum, refill box. I'll put the starter back on and see if it's still jammed.
+1 ... but make sure you keep hold of the thing whilst you do this.... else it may launch itself off the bench and into your toes/gonads etc....
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Absolutely. Wedge it against something and put your foot on it. Or maybe you can get it in a vice.
Have you tried turning the engine over by hand, using the crankshaft pulley bolt?
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I'm away out to do that now, mate. I'm uploading a video of my starter. It seems to be fine, but doesn't start with much of a kick? So, I'm wondering what you guys think of it. I've never started one off the vehicle before so nothing to compare it to. The video is taking a while to upload.
Here it is.
Nope, can't insert a video from photobucket.
I've put the video in a public folder with my dash board pictures here http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/copperslip/library/?sort=3&page=1
I'll go out and try the crank pulley bolt.
Here it is.
Nope, can't insert a video from photobucket.
I've put the video in a public folder with my dash board pictures here http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/copperslip/library/?sort=3&page=1
I'll go out and try the crank pulley bolt.
can't view the video (?) flipping technology!
Starter should almost jump off the bench - newtons second law - equal and opposite reaction and all that - as the motor armature spins up, the case should try to spin the other way, with some "urgency"...
Starter should almost jump off the bench - newtons second law - equal and opposite reaction and all that - as the motor armature spins up, the case should try to spin the other way, with some "urgency"...
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I can turn the engine. Only about a third of a revolution because the socket bar catches stuff. But it's moving easily and I can see the flywheel turning. Thank god!
I'll put the starter back on. Fingers crossed.
I'll put the starter back on. Fingers crossed.
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is the video not in the dash board folder?
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