Education in vacant oil!

Gsddisco · Jul 29, 2021

Afternoon all

I have a basic understanding on mechanics but this has got me a little stumped.

bought a breaker 10p TD5 with a knackered chassis and head gasket gone. The engine still ran fine albeit head gasket failure, so I figured might as well attempt the head gasket and possibly sell on the engine.
Once stripped down no visual signs of head cracked etc but dowels had both snapped so figured this could be the reason. Had a brand new head from a different 10p engine so put that on. Put in some metal dowels. Built it back up and ran on 4 cylinders below 2k rpm but that’s besides the point, only ran for about 5 minutes whilst diagnosing the misfire (which turned out to be the injector harness) and every single drop of the 7 odd litres filled the coolant system but nothing went back into the sump at all. Sump is bone dry but coolant system now holds all its coolant now the oil too.

If it was crack in the block wouldn’t the two fluids just mix? Rather than get completely pushed out and not returned?

Can someone give me an education on how this comes to be?

Wimblowdriver · Jul 29, 2021

Not sure about the td5 but I think it has an oil cooler plumbed into the engine coolant system (as on the tdci). A failed seal in the oil cooler lets the oil into the coolant, as the oil is at a much higher pressure than the coolant. (The cooler is the part the oil filter attaches to on the tdci, might be the same on the td5 - someone more knowledgeable should be along soon).

Edit; there's plenty of posts on the td5 oil cooler, just use the search facility on the forum.

lynall · Jul 29, 2021

Is it posisble to fit the head gasket back to front?

Gsddisco · Jul 29, 2021

lynall said:
Is it posisble to fit the head gasket back to front?

the head gasket only goes on one way (I believe and I now hope!) there is rectangular cut out which goes around the chain at the front and there’s two holes on either side for the dowels. So I hope I didn’t manage to mess that bit up, if I did though wouldn’t it just mix the oil and coolant again?

Gsddisco · Jul 29, 2021

Wimblowdriver said:
Not sure about the td5 but I think it has an oil cooler plumbed into the engine coolant system (as on the tdci). A failed seal in the oil cooler lets the oil into the coolant, as the oil is at a much higher pressure than the coolant. (The cooler is the part the oil filter attaches to on the tdci, might be the same on the td5 - someone more knowledgeable should be along soon).

Edit; there's plenty of posts on the td5 oil cooler, just use the search facility on the forum.

this was a thought of ours, surly the only point the oil and coolant come close is the head gasket and cooler, I’m just confused as to how it’s allowed the oil to enter the coolant system but nothing to come back to the engine

kermit_rr · Jul 29, 2021

Gsddisco said:
this was a thought of ours, surly the only point the oil and coolant come close is the head gasket and cooler, I’m just confused as to how it’s allowed the oil to enter the coolant system but nothing to come back to the engine

Some engines do have water cooled oil coolers, as said if the seal goes out if they corrode, oil gets into the water

Turboman · Jul 29, 2021

Gsddisco said:
this was a thought of ours, surly the only point the oil and coolant come close is the head gasket and cooler, I’m just confused as to how it’s allowed the oil to enter the coolant system but nothing to come back to the engine

Oil cooler in the radiator, as on most Ninety/One Ten and Defenders.

The oil pressure is higher than the water pressure, so the oil goes into the water while the engine is running if there is a break in the oil cooler.

Wimblowdriver · Jul 29, 2021

What I can't understand is how 7 litres of oil has got into the coolant. There isn't room for it if the coolant system was full to start with.

Turboman · Jul 29, 2021

Wimblowdriver said:
What I can't understand is how 7 litres of oil has got into the coolant. There isn't room for it if the coolant system was full to start with.

Guessing the water went out the cap on the expansion tank while the oil went in.
From memory, there is a pressure release valve on the cap.

Wimblowdriver · Jul 29, 2021

Turboman said:
Guessing the water went out the cap on the expansion tank while the oil went in.
From memory, there is a pressure release valve on the cap.

OK but the oil would sit on top of the coolant in the header tank and it would be oil coming out. I had the oil cooler failure on my tdci (fixed under warranty) but only a small amount of oil was in the header tank after hundreds of miles driving. The biggest problem for the op is where has 7 litres of oil gone with just 5 minutes on 2000rpm.

Gsddisco · Jul 29, 2021

Wimblowdriver said:
What I can't understand is how 7 litres of oil has got into the coolant. There isn't room for it if the coolant system was full to start with.

you and me both, the dip stick is dry and when we opened the expansion bottle it went off with let’s just say with a bang, I dread to think how much pressure was in it (bearing in mind it was relatively cool as it wasn’t running for long at all) I suspect the cooling system wasn’t full to the brim as it would of been air locked but for it to swallow the 7 litres is surprisingly

Wimblowdriver · Jul 29, 2021

I would hazard a guess that the dipstick only pokes about an inch into the top of the oil in the sump. I'd risk a small bet that if you take the sump plug out you'll get 5 litres of oil up your sleeve.

lynall · Jul 29, 2021

Gsddisco said:
the head gasket only goes on one way (I believe and I now hope!) there is rectangular cut out which goes around the chain at the front and there’s two holes on either side for the dowels. So I hope I didn’t manage to mess that bit up, if I did though wouldn’t it just mix the oil and coolant again?

I have no idea not done a td5 head gasket, but might have fitted a 300 head gasket upside down once, so it was just a wild card guess!

Interceptorxj · Jul 30, 2021

Hopefully this isn't your issue but for ref. note that some earlier engines should not be fitted with steel dowels "under any circumstances'"

Gsddisco · Jul 30, 2021

Interceptorxj said:
Hopefully this isn't your issue but for ref. note that some earlier engines should not be fitted with steel dowels "under any circumstances'"

sorry should of stated we put a 15p head on. We had it to one side after a bottom end failure on a facelift with a 2 week old head.

update; taken off the oil cooler and nothing much to see other than lots of mixed oil and water. Removed the oil cooler itself and attempted to pressurise to see if it would leak but couldn’t see anything. Going to fit an oil cooler tomorrow (2nd hand off another engine) and fingers crossed should be ok

Turboman · Jul 30, 2021

Gsddisco said:
sorry should of stated we put a 15p head on. We had it to one side after a bottom end failure on a facelift with a 2 week old head.

update; taken off the oil cooler and nothing much to see other than lots of mixed oil and water. Removed the oil cooler itself and attempted to pressurise to see if it would leak but couldn’t see anything. Going to fit an oil cooler tomorrow (2nd hand off another engine) and fingers crossed should be ok

If you want to test it, you can connect the two pipes to the oil cooler together, and run around a bit, see if the oil and water stay separate.
You may also find that water comes out of the fittings on the empty cooler in the rad.
The oil cooler is thermostatically controlled, and oil should only go round it when very hot. So running without it for a short time will do no harm.

Gsddisco · Aug 1, 2021

Update; thanks guys, oil cooler it was.

put a replacement injector loom on to solve the misfire and it ran perfectly and all the oil remained where it was supposed to

Drained the remaining oil before start up and out and had about 2 litres left. Needless to say the £10 extraction pump from Lidl earned it keep! Flushed out and fresh oil in. Good to go

Wimblowdriver · Aug 2, 2021

You will find that oil will gradually migrate from the cooling system up to the header tank over a period of time (several weeks). Check the tank frequently (dip a finger in) and mop the oil off the surface of the coolant with a bit of rolled up kitchen roll. It will eventually be clear

. (Been there, dunnit).

tom1979 · Aug 2, 2021

Interceptorxj said:
Hopefully this isn't your issue but for ref. note that some earlier engines should not be fitted with steel dowels "under any circumstances'"

I spoke to Turner Engineering a year or two ago about this and they were explicit in the fact that plastic dowels should not be used on any Td5 engine. Their words : "Land Rover bulletins are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools"

Education in vacant oil!

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