DSE in Distress!

Hi All,
This is my first post, but I've lurked on here for several years.

I have a P38 DSE with the BMW 2.5 6 cyl engine - with 343,000 miles!

Today I was rectifying a leak on the output flange of the transfer box. I put it in 1st gear to give some resistance and tighten the center bolt - I also got the wife to put her foot on the brake. Once done I didn't take it out of gear, but continued turning the handbrake drum to line up with the prop flange.

I turned the drum about 1/4 of a turn, and then felt/heard a metallic noise further forwards. When I tried to start the engine it was difficult to get it going - when it did fire up, there was a huge amount of diesel clatter and smoke.

Have I caused the chain to jump a tooth by winding it backwards? Any thoughts on the best way to go about diagnosing and fixing? I see there's 2 chains - any guesses which one's likely to have gone?

Appreciate any ideas.

Cheers,
Paul

Back to basics tdc flywheel pin pump pin ect ect ect wouldn't
It be your crank to pump if any if it were your cam don't you think there would be more than a clatter lol

I'd still check the cam timing as well. One tooth may not contact valves but create horrible running problems. NEVER turn an engine backwards if it has a cam chain or belt.

defender300td1 said:

Back to basics tdc flywheel pin pump pin ect ect ect wouldn't
It be your crank to pump if any if it were your cam don't you think there would be more than a clatter lol

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I will check everything from basics as you suggest. I get the impression lately me LR hates me!

Cheers Paul

Wiganerdan said:

I'd still check the cam timing as well. One tooth may not contact valves but create horrible running problems. NEVER turn an engine backwards if it has a cam chain or belt.

Click to expand...

These are wise words. I'm sure I've done it many times over the years and not given it a thought. Looks like sods law finally caught up with me though!

Cheers Paul

If anything has jumped a tooth it is likely to be the chain from crank to pump. It is under far more load that the cam chain. If that is the case you have a big job on your hands. With special tools involved. Simpler if it's the cam chain but you still need special tools to reset camshaft. If a tooth has been jumped it indicates lots of wear in the chains and tensioners. The only way to tell is set the engine up and see which part is out. If both pump and cam are out it's the bottom chain. If just the cam is out it's the cam chain. To line the prop up you should just have lifted a rear wheel. As others have said unless it's a couple of mm to line a overshot timing mark NEVER turn an engine backwards.

wammers said:

If anything has jumped a tooth it is likely to be the chain from crank to pump. It is under far more load that the cam chain. If that is the case you have a big job on your hands. With special tools involved. Simpler if it's the cam chain but you still need special tools to reset camshaft. If a tooth has been jumped it indicates lots of wear in the chains and tensioners. The only way to tell is set the engine up and see which part is out. If both pump and cam are out it's the bottom chain. If just the cam is out it's the cam chain. To line the prop up you should just have lifted a rear wheel. As others have said unless it's a couple of mm to line a overshot timing mark NEVER turn an engine backwards.

Click to expand...

Thanks Wammers. I plan to buy a set of timing tools for the M51 engine off of EBay.
I read up on setting the cam and it appears a lot less work than the timing pump.
I plan to take the rad out for either case. I notice that the sump needs to be dropped for the timing pump chain. RAVE also talks about removing the head to get the timing cover off - this seems counter intuitive to me as I would expect the timing cover to be the last thing to go on after setting up and timing the engine.

Any thoughts on the reason for, and if the head needs to be removed?


Cheers Paul

dragoon said:

Thanks Wammers. I plan to buy a set of timing tools for the M51 engine off of EBay.
I read up on setting the cam and it appears a lot less work than the timing pump.
I plan to take the rad out for either case. I notice that the sump needs to be dropped for the timing pump chain. RAVE also talks about removing the head to get the timing cover off - this seems counter intuitive to me as I would expect the timing cover to be the last thing to go on after setting up and timing the engine.

Any thoughts on the reason for, and if the head needs to be removed?


Cheers Paul

Click to expand...

The head gasket covers the front cover. So the head is the last thing to go on.

No need to take head off but you might need to take the sump off as the timing cover is Incorpreated with the sump gasket so if it tears you need to remove the sump to replace the gasket a lot of oil is flicked around there don't bother cheating with a sealant they always leak .

dragoon said:

Hi All,
This is my first post, but I've lurked on here for several years.

I have a P38 DSE with the BMW 2.5 6 cyl engine - with 343,000 miles!

Today I was rectifying a leak on the output flange of the transfer box. I put it in 1st gear to give some resistance and tighten the center bolt - I also got the wife to put her foot on the brake. Once done I didn't take it out of gear, but continued turning the handbrake drum to line up with the prop flange.

I turned the drum about 1/4 of a turn, and then felt/heard a metallic noise further forwards. When I tried to start the engine it was difficult to get it going - when it did fire up, there was a huge amount of diesel clatter and smoke.

Have I caused the chain to jump a tooth by winding it backwards? Any thoughts on the best way to go about diagnosing and fixing? I see there's 2 chains - any guesses which one's likely to have gone?

Appreciate any ideas.

Cheers,
Paul

Click to expand...

Oopops yes you have, turning engine backwards always does this,it usually breaks a plastic guide, thus losing the pump timing, and no matter what you do, even loosening pump securing bolts and turning pump,it will run ok till the next time you switch it off, then it will be the same,rough running loads of smoke and clatter,replacement is the only answer, easy to set it up as the chain has coloured lnks on it for timing, head does not need to come off to do the job,its probably best described as fiddly to do,you will need the timing kit to set it up but 343k is damned good going,if i was doing it and intended to keep the car i would on balance stick a new head gasket on for not a lot of extra work or cost,should then be good for another 300k?

rangerovertoy said:

Oopops yes you have, turning engine backwards always does this,it usually breaks a plastic guide, thus losing the pump timing, and no matter what you do, even loosening pump securing bolts and turning pump,it will run ok till the next time you switch it off, then it will be the same,rough running loads of smoke and clatter,replacement is the only answer, easy to set it up as the chain has coloured lnks on it for timing, head does not need to come off to do the job,its probably best described as fiddly to do,you will need the timing kit to set it up but 343k is damned good going,if i was doing it and intended to keep the car i would on balance stick a new head gasket on for not a lot of extra work or cost,should then be good for another 300k?

Click to expand...

If the pump timings out the cam timing is out.

wammers said:

If the pump timings out the cam timing is out.

Click to expand...

Being that they run of the same sprocket bit obvious

defender300td1 said:

Being that they run of the same sprocket bit obvious

Click to expand...

Yes very. But maybe not to some.

Thanks guys. I hope to tackle the job from Tuesday this week. I'll update the post with details of how it goes.

Cheers,
Paul

While the sump and head is off you might as well do piston rings and big end shells while your at it seeing as its done 343 000 miles.

Just an update on progress. I spent several hours stripping stuff down today (mostly the cooling system, pumps, alternator etc) and am at the stage where I'm ready to tackle the front cover.

I have a couple of questions where I would appreciate some guidance.

My hope is to be able to do this without removing the head or sump. From the responses I've had and what I've read on-line it seems that this may be possible.


1) Am I correct in understanding that I should remove the four vertical bolts in the sump at the front of the engine? These seem to go through the sump and into the timing cover? I presume if I'm careful, I can then leave the sump in place? Or do I need to slacken more of the sump off?

2) For the top end - i.e. where the head meets the top of the timing cover, I can see the head gasket. Am I just then aiming to remove the few smaller bolts that go vertically from the head into the timing cover. I guess then with the sump bolts out, and all the other timing cover bolts out, the timing cover should ease out?

3) Once the timing cover is off, I'm assuming that's where I'll see the oil pump behind it. But I can then leave the oil pump alone, and cut around the gasket if needed?

4) I've removed the vibration damper and outer pulley. I see I now need to remove the crank pulley itself. RAVE mentions a special tool to hold this. Have others done it without, and how have you done it? Is the crank bolt a standard right hand thread?


Cheers, Paul

Remove sump much easer think it had dowls in I'm absolutly sure your going to need a new gasket
Remove top bolts whatever way the crank turns with starter it's the opposite way a good fitting socket and long bar trapped on floor or with straps and flicking starter motor wammers say's you can jam it with a wedge of wood I've not used that method no need to touch pump for chains and tensioners ..

defender300td1 said:

Remove sump much easer think it had dowls in I'm absolutly sure your going to need a new gasket
Remove top bolts whatever way the crank turns with starter it's the opposite way a good fitting socket and long bar trapped on floor or with straps and flicking starter motor wammers say's you can jam it with a wedge of wood I've not used that method no need to touch pump for chains and tensioners ..

Click to expand...

Thank you for the quick reply. The starter idea sounds a good one.

One other little question which springs to mind, especially if I need to get the sump off....

The suspension had dropped to its stops. It would be easier to drain the oil and get under the car if I could get it to rise on the air suspension. Do you know if there is a way to get it to rise without having the engine running?

Cheers Paul

With a nano,override pump or a emergency pump up kit .

defender300td1 said:

With a nano,override pump or a emergency pump up kit .

Click to expand...

Thanks - that helps. I have a Faultmate - I didn't use it for some time - I'll link it up with the PC and see if it lets me do what I need.

Cheers Paul