Disco 1 Vented Disc Upgrade

Bit of a query guys. This weekend I have been upgrading the front brakes on my '95 Disco 300TDI. I have changed the pads discs and calipers for vented ones. All the parts are the correct ones as listed in the illustrated parts catalogue (my bible!!!!!). Put it all together and bled the brakes and they seem to work.

The strange thing is, only one pot either side of the caliper seems to be moving. Is this because it is only a single brake pipe input? There are 2 holes next to each other where the brake line screws in, could I have put in the wrong one? Do I need another pipe fitted for the second hole, or does it need a bleed nipple in? There is nothing leaking from the second hole. And nowhere I have looked says anything needs to be put into it.

Any ideas?

Nev265 said:

Bit of a query guys. This weekend I have been upgrading the front brakes on my '95 Disco 300TDI. I have changed the pads discs and calipers for vented ones. All the parts are the correct ones as listed in the illustrated parts catalogue (my bible!!!!!). Put it all together and bled the brakes and they seem to work.

The strange thing is, only one pot either side of the caliper seems to be moving. Is this because it is only a single brake pipe input? There are 2 holes next to each other where the brake line screws in, could I have put in the wrong one? Do I need another pipe fitted for the second hole, or does it need a bleed nipple in? There is nothing leaking from the second hole. And nowhere I have looked says anything needs to be put into it.

Any ideas?

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I suspect you have been supplied with, and have fitted, the wrong calipers.

The ones you have fitted seem to be for a "SPLIT SYSTEM" in which one pot of each front caliper is operated by one half of the system. Probably the back is split only by the left and right sides.

So each HALF of the system is intended to operate one pot in BOTH front brakes, and one back brake.

The way you have it now, the back brakes will be the same, but you will have only half the braking at the front, which is not enough.

Anyway, wrong calipers I reckon, and you would do well to change them. Fitting the other master cylinder and all the pipes to make these calipers work would be a BIG and expensive job.

CharlesY

I can see exactley what you mean, and I would assume the same. Except that the official Landrover illustrated parts catalogue only lists one set of calipers for vented discs. There are 3 sets for solid ones (depending on year) and the local dealer reckons these are the correct ones.

So does this mean I need to fit the second set of pipes?

I supose that as u don't have any instructions the thing to do is move the pipe over to the other hole and see what happens, but for dual circuit calipers there would be two pipe connections and at least two bleed nipple connections although the early LR calipers had three.

Is ther nothing on the manufactures web site to help you.

On the early systems the primary circuits operates one set of apposed pistons of each front caliper (that's two pistons on each caliper) the secondary circuit operates the other set of pistons and both the rear calipers. On your disco, like mine the primary circuit is the rear cailpers with the secondary operating the front.

So if your new calipers need a primary and also a secondary circuit you will need to fit an early master cylinder plus some pipe work, that will be a 200 disco may be and an RRC as my RRC had dual circuit front brakes, I don't know the implications if you have ABS but I expect there are some.

Nev265 said:

I can see exactley what you mean, and I would assume the same. Except that the official Landrover illustrated parts catalogue only lists one set of calipers for vented discs. There are 3 sets for solid ones (depending on year) and the local dealer reckons these are the correct ones.

So does this mean I need to fit the second set of pipes?

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The vented discs have nothing to do with it unless they are thicker than solid discs and need more space in the caliper "jaws".

The plain fact seems to be that the calipers you have fitted are NOT compatible with the master cylinder and pipework fitted to the car, and you MUST sort this before going on the road.

The law says that every part of every braking system fitted to every wheel of every motor vehicle shall be maintained in good and efficient working order at all times while the vehicle is on the road. As half of your front brakes aren't even plumbed-in you'll be in trouble if something goes wrong and they check it out.

My advice is to REPLACE (not refit) the old calipers with new ones exactly the same. Then and only then will you know where you are.

Have you by any chance fitted these new so-called ventilated discs to a Landy that did NOT have ventilated discs as standard?

I think that SOME Landies used different calipers and thick vented discs, and were plumbed with two pipes and flex-hoses to each front caliper. Your Landy seems not to be one of them, so vented discs should NOT be used.

CharlesY

If yu send me ya chassis number I can stick it in microcat and it'll only bring up the calipers that is supposed to be fitted

redhand said:

If yu send me ya chassis number I can stick it in microcat and it'll only bring up the calipers that is supposed to be fitted

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Good plan, but isn't he telling us he's fitted ventilated discs?

If he has fitted OEM LandRover ventilated discs to a Landy that was NOT intended for them then he's in trouble if the matching calipers need twin pipe plumbing. And, As I believe, the caliper for LR OEM vented disks has a much wider gap in the middle for the disk to pass through, and four-pots with twin pipes ....

The calipers must match the VEHICLE, especially the master-cylinder piston diameter, and of course the plumbing arrangements. The calipers ALSO should be a match for the thickness of the disc. If a thin disk is used in a wide caliper, the caliper pistons may pop clean out when the pads wear down. Instant brake failure.

I hope he hasn't mistaken fitting thick OEM LR vented discs for thinner Afterpart vented exchange discs which are the same thickness as the ones he took off.

Complications ... and it all seemed such a good idea, and so easy ...

CharlesY

The discs are thicker and thereforethe calipers have a wider gap also. According to Landrover, this set is compatible with my Disco.

Think I may need to look at fitting the secondary pipes as the pipework is quite cheap and then its just change the master cylinder.

Nev265 said:

The discs are thicker and therefore the calipers have a wider gap also. According to Landrover, this set is compatible with my Disco.

According to LandRover AND WHAT YOU HAVE TOLD US, these are the WRONG DISCS, PADS and CALIPERS for your model of LandRover. You said you are UPGRADING! You KNOW you are NOT fitting parts which were intended for YOUR model type. Are you crazy? Or just kidding yourself?

How can you think these calipers and discs are "compatible" with your Disco when (a) they are the WRONG ONES and (b) your car doesn't have the right master cylinder, and (c) your car has never been fitted with dual pipework? You may also find that the REAR brakes are different between your car and the ones with twin-pot front calipers. If so you'll need to change them too.

Be SURE to notify your insurance company you have messed up - sorry, UPGRADED - your brakes big time. Give them all the details. Don't hold back. They will be absolutely thrilled.

Think I may need to look at fitting the secondary pipes as the pipework is quite cheap and then its just change the master cylinder.

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You THINK so? You mean there's some possibility you might take the Disco on the road like it is now with only half its front brakes connected to the hydraulics??? SWITCH ON YOUR BRAINS!

Ask yourself - "WHY AM I DOING THIS?"
Why are you making BAD modifications to your BRAKES, when you know so little you didn't even know or see that the calipers you bought AND FITTED needed TWIN PIPES to each. You thought you were being clever by fitting vented discs, with matching calipers and pads. Those three parts may match EACH OTHER according to the parts list BUT THEY DO NOT MATCH YOUR CAR. They are the WRONG PARTS for your car and SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FITTED.

I don't think you know enough yet to be doing serious brakes jobs, and worse, you argue and won't see it or be told. You know best. Experts always do.

MY advice .... restore your brakes to ORIGINAL by buying and fitting correct calipers, pads and discs. What you have done so far EVEN IF IT HAD WORKED and even after fitting the right master cylinder and dual pipes, would not give you "better brakes". Ask this - why does a TD5 Disco not have twin-pot front brakes? Did LR use twin-pots for a while, then drop them? WHY did they drop them? There are reasons.

The calipers pads and discs of a Disco are NOT the limiting factor for braking. The TYRES are the limit. If you say brake fade is a problem then you must be driving your two-ton Disco like a lunatic and shouldn't be on the public roads anyway.

I am not trying to give you a hard time, BUT, you really MUST get the message that some "UPGRADES" are NOT smart, and this idea while it seems a good one on the face of it, has turned out to be a bad one in the event.

Put it back the way it should be, and drive within the car's limits.

CharlesY

I just know I'm going to get roasted anytime soon .... but what the Hell .... ?

Don't mess with me, and don't mess with BRAKES.

CharlesY

CharlesY said:

I just know I'm going to get roasted anytime soon .... but what the Hell .... ?

Don't mess with me, and don't mess with BRAKES.

CharlesY

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Well said that man!!!

PLEASE EVERYONE JUST CALM DOWN.

The main reason for changing is that the brakes had had it. Needed new discs and pads anyway, one of the pots on the passenger front caliper had seized and the general; condition of them were crap.

Nwhere have I mentioned "brake fade" or bad tyres, so please read the previous posts properly before any further outbusts.

I had a very good chat with a Landrover dealer mechanic this afternoon. I explained the situation and this is what he said.

The ventilated disc upgrade is perfectly fine for both twin and single brake line models. The parts I am using is - calipers RTC6776 & RTC6777, discs FTC902. THESE ARE CORRECT AND COMPATIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

According to the mechanic, obviously the twin pipes are bolted straight on and away you go. With a single brake line, you need to fit a splitter just before the flexible hose. Then fit a second flexible hose and solid pipe on each side to give you the second line for each of the calipers. Hey presto, you have upgraded ventilated front discs.

The thing to be careful of is bleeding. There are 3 bleed nipples on each caliper and they need to be bled in a certain order to work properly.

Now if anyone wants to question this reply, please feel free to do so, but this is how Landrover Main Dealer mechanics do the upgrade, so take note rather than have a go please.

I saw that splitter idear years ago for cars modified for the track/fast road but I didn't mention it as I didn't think it was Kosha for road use now, it's easy and makes a very neat job when the pipe and hoses match.

The parts you mention are shown in the disco parts book I look as there was a question what D1's were fitted with vents as standard, no one knows.

With bleeding the calipers do the outside nipple first and then the rear two together but I'm sure you know that, if you do, sorry.

Thanks for the bleeding tips - I hadn't gotten around to looking them up yet.

Sorry if my previous reply sounded a bit stroppy, I was a little annoyed at the tone of some previous posts. I have dealt with brakes of all sorts of sizes and shapes for some years now, admittedly mainly motorbike ones (and these have to be spot on cos you done want them failing at speed), its just I hadn't done Disco calipers before so I just wanted to check there was nothing I was missing.

No such thing as a silly question, only the one you DIDN'T ask!!

I have got the splitters and the 2 extra flexi hoses, just need to get 2 of the short solid pipes and 3 more male to male adapters to conect the splitter to the hoses (they only had one in stock), so hopefully in a couple of days the brakes will be working properly.

Then its try to fix the oil leak!! Deep joy!!

Madness.

WHY are you doing this? What are you hoping to achieve?

Naaaahhh .... forget it. I quit. You're one of those guys who have to find out the hard way.

But don't forget to tell the insurance company.

CharlesY

The idea of fitting 4 pot calipers in place of 'normal' twin ones was a trick we used on SD1 Rovers (god I really am old) anyway we would upgrade the 2600 engine output/performance along with the brake upgrade. We investigated the upgrade with Rover mechanics ect and then went ahead with the job.

Before this I had a Ford Anglia with a Rover V8 in it with front disc brakes (Ford Classic) but all were checked out as safe modifications (we had to fit a manual rear brake pressure adjustment to get the balance right) along with an engineers report for MOT and insurance, but again, the right reason and the right advice. I am sure if Nev 265 had come on here and said he had researched a brake modification with LR mechanics and had upgraded to such and such he may have even drawn some interest along with some positive comments.

Years ago we did not go ahead with an idea (in particular brakes) without doing thorough research first. I think the reason that one or two people on here have their backs up is because it appears the conversion was made with, little or even no clear reason as to why you need an upgrade, and then further investigation as to how the modification should be carried out without risking harm to yourself and others, this along with what appears to be limited mechanical knowledge.

So if we all sit back and think if we have ever made mistakes in the past regardless of whether they were car mods or simply driving through a long tunnel and realising we are low on fuel and praying it does not run out halfway through (how dangerous could that be?).

We all make misttakes right?

Easy now guys and girls, calm down out there and stay SAFE.

regards

Dave

Dave 2000 said:

.

I am sure if Nev 265 had come on here and said he had researched a brake modification with LR mechanics and had upgraded to such and such he may have even drawn some interest along with some positive comments.

CORRECT!

Years ago we did not go ahead with an idea (in particular brakes) without doing thorough research first. I think the reason that one or two people on here have their backs up is because it appears the conversion was made with, little or even no clear reason as to why you need an upgrade, and then further investigation as to how the modification should be carried out without risking harm to yourself and others, this along with what appears to be limited mechanical knowledge.

CORRECT AGAIN! (Hey, I wish I had written that).


We all make misttakes right?

You speak for yourself - and you just did - only one 't' in mistakes!

Easy now guys and girls, calm down out there and stay SAFE.

Believe it.
But as for trusting the spoken word of "mechanics" from a local main stealer regarding serious BRAKES alterations .... Hmmm....... I'm not so sure about that. Remember, LandRover ABANDONED twin-pot dual system front calipers in Discos after quite a short time. WHY did they do that? If they are such a great idea, why does my Disco 2 TD5 not have that system? As it turned out, there are several reasons for it not being such a smart idea in PRACTICE, as they thought it was in theory.

regards

Dave

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Thanks Dave. Good Post.

CharlesY

We all make misttakes right?

"You speak for yourself - and you just did - only one 't' in mistakes! "

CHARLESY........I cannot believe you fell for that!!!!!!!
regards

Dave

Mea Culpa ....

But would YOU do to your Disco Brakes what he is doing?

CharlesY

CharlesY said:

Mea Culpa ....

But would YOU do to your Disco Brakes what he is doing?

CharlesY

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No but I have made braking modifications.

During competition use I experienced some brake fade and as the standard disc's/pads/fluid was good I changed the standard vented discs to crossdrilled and grooved at the front, at the rear the disc's were also changed to a similar pattern. The brake pads (LR) were changed to Mintex and the fluid changed again just to make sure.

The stopping distance has not decreased in my opinion during normal driving however, the fade experienced during fast and hot stages has been eliminated AFAICT (although only tested in one hot race last year due to injury so waiting to see what this July/August brings). I would add this problem only happened during the July/August races when ambient temperatures were at their highest, at no time did I lose my brakes completely but the pedal travel increased which does not do much for your confidence when stopping hard, any other time of the year this has not been an issue.

Please note the car run's with: heavy iron front/rear bumpers/rock sliders (all jackable), diff guards/steering guard/ belly guard/two winches/diff locks with compressor ect, this car also factory air conditioning and heated seats, twin Optima's plus a ton of other gear in the back so it is heavy. The speeds are often in the range of 100 -120 kph over rough hard ground, the climbs up hills and runs down the other side add a serious load to the machine so IMHO the work and expense is justifiable.

Further, the parts were supplied for my vehicle and matched to my spanish spec vin numbers and are specified as an upgrade designed for this particular vehicle (they are also used by other club members here) also the brake pressures front and rear have not changed in percentage terms in bias front to rear...............that's the way to alter brakes.


regards

Dave