Defender newbie with a lot of questions

Hi everyone,

After lurking for weeks and reading every possible Defender buying guide possible I decided to finally register to ask some questions and hope someone will talk some sense into me.

Now, I'm a typical car driver, used to modern comforts, ice cold aircon, windows which keep water outside, actual windscreen wipers and full beam headlights which provide illumination superior to that of a flashlight from a Poundshop.
I also know nought about motors. I've got some theory knowledge, but no practical experience.

Why on earth would I want a Defender?

A few months back I had an opportunity to drive a 200tdi Defender 90 and was immediately unimpressed. It was noisy, had little leg room, there was nowhere to put my elbow. Then, as the time went, the bloody thing started growing on me, to a point where I'm working out running costs, budgeting for repairs, picking up knowledge about common faults, reading owners reviews and considering buying manuals from Amazon. All this, and I don't even own the Defender yet. The missus is whinging that I shouldn't buy 'that thing' because it 'looks like a tractor and you'll look like a farmer'. Unfortunately, she'll have to go.

Currently, I drive a BMW 3-series. Before that - a Mazda RX-8. Before - a Golf. All lovely, comfortable cars, with one thing in common - no soul, nothing that would make me want to invest money, and keep them for years to come.

I have a feeling that a Defender might be the car I'm looking for. Plus, it would be perfect for some light greenlaning or going up to Scotland for a week of camping.

Anyway, here's some questions:

• My budget is £4000 - £6000. 200tdi or 300tdi? Best I could probably get is a mid to late 90s 300tdi. Opinions?
• Running costs - I probably do around 200 miles a week (40/60 city/motorway). I'm working with the assumption this will cost me some £50 in diesel. Am I being unrealistic here?
• Budget for repairs and maintenance - can anyone give me a realistic idea of what I will be looking at monthly?
• Driver leg room - are all Defenders like the one I drove? I'm 5'1'' and found my thighs were pressed against the steering wheel, with the seat as far as possible. I was thinking of a smaller wheel, or thinner seats as a solution?

Any input appreciated.

Welcome.

You forgot to add that the handbrake is in an awkward place.

I like the idea of a Defender but not as a main car and with your budget I would strongly suggest you look at a Discovery TD5 before making a choice.

It does not quite have the history and nostalgia of the Defender but it is capable off road and is comfortable.

It solves nearly all the problems you are worried about the Defender and for less money. Just the leaky sunroof to cure on a Disco

Just an idea for you to look in to. You might even keep the missus!

All the manuals are here for nearly all Landies, I think:
Home | TOPIx

If I had a second car as a hobby and more time I would go for the Defender. An older one will take work or money to keep it going well but all Landies can be run in to the ground to some extent and they usually keep going!

Regards

Hi Clydefrog

I'm new here myself, I too got bitten by the Landy bug, had an off road experience in March and that was it, I looked for a long while before settling on a 90 300tdi, 1998 Hard Top conversion with 97k on the clock.

It was fairly tidy, cost just over £5k but I've since spent another £5k on it, got carried away with wheels, seats, snorkel etc, it was originally a hard top but someone had fitted windows and bench seats in, I've done a rear tub mod and fitted original Puma forward facing seats in the rear, heated seats in the front, get everything off eBay .
Running costs aren't too bad, I average 30 to 34 mpg, £60 for 250 miles, insurance is £320 through NFU, they even gave me 8 years ncb to start with, as it's a hard top the road tax is half the cost of a genuine station wagon which is over £500 a year.

I've really enjoyed getting some tools and having a go, it's a love hate thing, every nut and bolt is seized or rusted solid so be prepared to get a grinder.
The best thing is I've been doing some light green laning, best days out ever, I've now booked a tour up the Pyrenees mountains in October.

My advice is go for it, be prepared to spend a bit on it. Constantly! You will keep doing the odd job, check the chassis thoroughly on any you view, smell the oil to see if it's burnt and feel the oil on the dipstick to see if it's smooth or gritty, any problems then walk away. There's plenty of defenders out there, good luck.

ThatJCB:

I did admittedly look at Discos, but a couple of things put me off:

- A lot of horror stories related to build quality. I think there's even a website some peed off guy set up just for the sake of moaning about his Disco.

- It's not a Defender so am not sure if it will do the trick. I'm kind of bored with cars where the driver is pampered with all the modern functionality.

- ECU and a lot of people talking about horrid electrical problems

What I do like about Discos though is the space. I could easily remove the back seats and stick a double airbed in. Camping without a tent!
While we're here - how does the Disco mpg compare to a Defender 90 300tdi? Curious, I'm hearing conflicting reports.

sparky87:

I'd probably be looking at something similar to yours with my budget. Your MPG sounds pretty good I have to say!

In terms of modifications - I reckon I would end up spending a couple of grand to get it how I want it.
I had a very quick look at insurance quotes on comparison sites and the lowest I found was in the region of £200.

What car did you have before the Defender, and how does it compare? I'm thinking noise, comfort etc? Forgetting about mods, how are your maintenance costs? What do you spend per month to keep it on the road and in running order?

Clydefrog

Firstly I want to say that I don't want to change your mind about a Defender. I like them and I also like the idea of the perceived simplicity.

From what you have written so far I think you should go for it and just buy one. I am sure you will love it. It will be tatty in places, noisy and occasionally uncomfortable but you will love driving it.

If you are already convinced you can stop reading now

Forget running costs and maintenance. They are the same as any old car of any make. You buy a 15 year old vehicle bits will break and no one can tell you if it will be a 10p fuse or a £1,000 head replacement.

Luckily the latter is rare and Land Rover parts are easy to get hold of.

Normal annual servicing is the same sort of cost as any other car. I would guess £200 per year would cover that.

When buying you can check the chassis and steering visually and perhaps feel for the gearbox as you drive it but it's still an unknown risk.

On that subject. Discoveries have a different gear ratio to Defenders so will always have better fuel economy on long journeys. Driving mainly around town and only 200 miles per week I would budget for £60 per week Defender or Discovery.

I don't calculate MPG anymore but I used to expect to get in my 300TDi Discovery between 400 and 500 miles on a single tank of diesel which would now cost £100 to fill up. Motorway driving was much more efficient than around town in a Discovery so I would expect the Defender to be a little more thirsty.

Just for the avoidance of doubt if you have to ask about running costs you must AVOID any PETROL Land Rover.

My choice was a Discovery because I like some of the comforts they offer.

To defend the Discovery I have chosen I just want to mention a few things.

One person on one web site moaning about one bad luck story is not the norm. There are loads of Land Rover forums with thousands of happy owners. There are even dedicated Discovery forums and at least 2 dedicated just to Discovery 2's. The Discovery Owners club has over 1000 members! I think that says more than the one or two doom sayers!

You also can't separate the Discovery from the Defender when looking at reliability.

At this point I should mention I have owned three Discoveries, a 200TDi, a 300TDi and now a 2004 TD5.

The important components of the 300TDi Defender and the 300TDi Discovery are almost identical. Some newer Discovery 1's could use an ECU for the diesel pump (EDC) but most don't. The TD5 Defenders and Discoveries are also almost identical but with a few different options. The TD5's are all fly by wire using an ECU.

It is fair to say the 300TDi is lower cost to fix. Parts are slightly cheaper and it is a simpler engine. Lots of people worry about the ECU on a TD5. I am fairly sure it is a dead brick without the ECU.

Having said that how many confirmed cases of an ECU failure have you found. There must be some but it is not something you read on forums very often. Those and similar ECUs are used in millions of cars not just Land Rovers. They are probably one of the most reliable components. Fully solid state nothing to go wrong.

As an example, early TD5s have a poor seal in the head that can allow oil up the wiring loom and in to the ECU. Even in that case every article I have read said the owner just cleaned the ECU connector or cleaned inside the ECU and the thing worked again.

The wiring is a different matter. As far as I know it is the same as any other car. No more or less likely to develop a hard to trace loose connection or dodgy earth. Most of which will not stop the car running but may be annoying.

I think I've gone on enough for now.

Regards

Clydefrog:

My defender is a tractor compared to the family people carrier, but it gives you the biggest grin on your face every time you drive it.

It's a bit noisy but you can still talk to a passenger easy, comfortable cruising speed is 65 to 70 mph, I'm driving on Continental All Terrains, I brought a brand new set of alloy wheels and tyres (5) for £650 from eBay.

The tyres are excellent off road and transformed the look of the car, I've fitted a steering guard, diff guard and snorkel for a bit of off road fun.

If you get a reasonable one you won't have to spend a lot on it, service parts are about £80 with oil, get the timing belt done for peace of mind, I've spent a bit on mine as I want to keep it a few years, hence the seat conversion, plus new back door and paint etc

I'm very happy with mine, the only thing I'm bothered about is getting it nicked, I've fitted a battery cut off switch so no one can start it, and I've got a mate producing an immobiliser shortly so no one can move it, watch out for Ratrap coming out soon.

Other than that go buy one.

One more bit of advice while your checking out defenders, I've just had to replace my fuel tank at a very big expense, 16 years old and rotten around the lip that joins the two halves together, feel the side of the tank from underneath and see if bits crumble in your hand or look under the drivers seat and have a feel.

Maybe I was unlucky but you could knock a few quid off the asking price if there's a problem.

A Defender will do as your main car perfectly well. I don't really see any problems with using mine as a daily driver, and a lot of people on here have one as their main or only car. I've got the TD5 rather than the 200 or 300, but as to speed, the major thing slowing you down is the other traffic - drive in the early hours of the morning and you can make surprisingly good progress from one end of the county to the other, even in a Series. Comfort can be improved with fitting aftermarket seats. For example, if you've got a lot of money, Exmoor Trim do a number of nice ones that can simply be bolted in, but for a budget option, many people fit various adapted car seats with some success. Doesn't give you any more room but it can feel better for all-day trips.

I bought a Discovery 2 back in May 'accidentally' whilst not really sure if I wanted it. I was on the lookout for a capable 4x4 with creature comforts as well as very good offloading capabilities . Was browsing ebay for LHD land rovers and saw one I liked...placed a bid...and unexpectedly won. Read all the horror stories about D2s after I picked it up. Hadn't viewed it before bidding and didn't even know what to look out for, let alone looking Luck must have really been on my side, the seller was genuine, had all receipts and bills since new, was the 1st owner and really looked after it. Thank goodness the chassis had only light surface rust!!! Only fault so far are the 'there amigos', a leaky roof and dodgy air springs, which I have had replaced with terrafirma shocks/springs.

I have never driven a Defender or Discovery before, but I totally love the D2...now I feel it is one of the best buys I have made. What is weird is I always hated spending £150 on a service of my Peugeot 206 that I had 5 years ago...yet with the D2 I don't 'mind' spending £300 on tree sliders

I can imagine the appeal of a Defender though...back to basics driving I guess. I had a UAZ 469 (google it, its a Russian army 4x4) and it had no creature comforts whatsoever...no wind-down windows (had to bolt them off), no synchro, incredibly poor heating (basically a metal pipe from engine bay to interior), canvas roof (which would fill with water forming a pool and always dumping the contents inside when braking), everything would shake, maxed out at 90kph and my face was about 20cm from the windshield. But I totally loved the car...had the biggest grin every time I drove it. Would often not start after sitting for a week, so took the air filter off and poured petrol straight into the carburettor...then ran perfect. Could never take it to the shops as the doors actually had no locks on whatsoever. I imagine the Defender will feel luxurious However, it did have AK47 holders on the side of the seats, which I haven't found in the D2

Decided to sell it, but my brother wanted it, so I still have a go in it here and there. Reason for getting a D2 was primarily as it could be used as an everyday car...with the UAZ I had to transport it every time I went off-roading which was a pain. D2 does city and off-road perfectly.

Fuel economy is ok...around 10l/100km for my TD5 (UAZ did around 15-18/100km). The UAZ was cheaper to fill up....only had 2 fuel tanks at 40l each (apparently 2 so that if one was shot through, there was a second one). Didn't have a fuel gauge, so it was always a lottery as to how much was left in the tanks D2 has a 100l tank...bloody expensive to fill up