Defender Handbrake - Better solutions?

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T

Tom Gilmour

Guest
Hi

Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's, 110's,
Disco's, etc.

Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
properly needing much adjustment.

Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with a
simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or cable.

Any ideas?

Cheers
Tom
V8 90


 

"Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi
>
> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>
> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
> the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
> properly needing much adjustment.
>
> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with
> a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or
> cable.
>
> Any ideas?

Shouldn't think it'd be too difficult to fit a disc in place of the drum and
say the rear caliper from a Mk3 granada on a bespoke bracket. Might even be
able to adapt the landy cable to fit the granny caliper. my only thought
against this idea is the possibility of drag playing havoc with propshaft
u/j's, my 110 went through a spate of edible rear propshaft u/j's, finally
cured by slackening off the handbrake drum adjuster 1 flat. There was only
the slightest of drag as well!
Badger.


 
On or around Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:48:10 +0100, "Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Hi
>
>Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's, 110's,
>Disco's, etc.
>
>Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
>the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
>properly needing much adjustment.
>
>Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with a
>simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or cable.

and you reckon that *wouldn't* get crudded up and stop working?

In theory, you could remove the drum and substitute a disc - all you need is
a suitable disc to bolt onto the hub which the drum normally sits on - there
are various calipers with cable operation, used as handbrakes on cars -
citroen BX have 'em on the front wheels - it's a hydraulic caliper but also
has a mechincal operation via a cable.


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Would to God that we might spend a single day really well!"
Thomas À Kempis (1380 - 1471) Imitation of Christ, I.xxiii.
 
Wheel chocks :)

Na seriosly my handbrake was not in the best of condition until recently so
reverse gear was as good as any solution


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes

"Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi
>
> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
110's,
> Disco's, etc.
>
> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
> the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
> properly needing much adjustment.
>
> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with
a
> simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or cable.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Cheers
> Tom
> V8 90
>
>


 
Badger wrote:

>
> "Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hi
>>
>> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
>> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>>
>> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the
>> shoes, the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from
>> returning properly needing much adjustment.
>>
>> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum
>> with a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or
>> cable.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> Shouldn't think it'd be too difficult to fit a disc in place of the drum
> and say the rear caliper from a Mk3 granada on a bespoke bracket. Might
> even be able to adapt the landy cable to fit the granny caliper. my only
> thought against this idea is the possibility of drag playing havoc with
> propshaft u/j's, my 110 went through a spate of edible rear propshaft
> u/j's, finally cured by slackening off the handbrake drum adjuster 1 flat.
> There was only the slightest of drag as well!
> Badger.

It would seem to me that a disc would be far more likely to be damaged,
judging by the stone chips all over the lower half of the backing plate on
my hand brake. A disc with the same braking area of the drum will be
substantially larger in diameter and hence protrude lower and collect even
more flying stones.
JD
 
In message <[email protected]>, Tom Gilmour
<[email protected]> writes
>Hi
>
>Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's, 110's,
>Disco's, etc.
>
>Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
>the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
>properly needing much adjustment.
>
>Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with a
>simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or cable.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>Cheers
>Tom
>V8 90
>
>


Believe it or not The drum is the better solution !

Disc brake handbrakes give there own share of problems on ordinary cars
after a while, and that is without the conditions that a landrover has
to endure.

--
Marc
 
In article <[email protected]>, Marc Draper
<[email protected]> writes
>Believe it or not The drum is the better solution !
>
>Disc brake handbrakes give there own share of problems on ordinary cars
>after a while, and that is without the conditions that a landrover has
>to endure.

Quite! Had them on an 89 VW Passat we kept for ages. Nice car in many
respects but let down badly by some really poor quality
materials/design, including the handbrake. Unless you do something very
clever by way of a guard, it would be really vulnerable in that
location. Ordinary disks are pretty well protected by the wheels, and
don't rotate as fast either.

Don't go there!


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY, BRISTOL www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 

"JD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Badger wrote:
>
>>
>> "Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
>>> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>>>
>>> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the
>>> shoes, the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from
>>> returning properly needing much adjustment.
>>>
>>> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum
>>> with a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage
>>> or
>>> cable.
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Shouldn't think it'd be too difficult to fit a disc in place of the drum
>> and say the rear caliper from a Mk3 granada on a bespoke bracket. Might
>> even be able to adapt the landy cable to fit the granny caliper. my only
>> thought against this idea is the possibility of drag playing havoc with
>> propshaft u/j's, my 110 went through a spate of edible rear propshaft
>> u/j's, finally cured by slackening off the handbrake drum adjuster 1
>> flat.
>> There was only the slightest of drag as well!
>> Badger.
>
> It would seem to me that a disc would be far more likely to be damaged,
> judging by the stone chips all over the lower half of the backing plate on
> my hand brake. A disc with the same braking area of the drum will be
> substantially larger in diameter and hence protrude lower and collect even
> more flying stones.
> JD

That, in all honesty, would be my gut feelings as well, however the question
was asked so I answered it. Ok, purely from an engineering "can it be done"
perspective.
I think you could probably get away with a disc slightly smaller than the
std drum, due to the torque multiplication of the diffs. After all, look how
totally overpowered a std transmission brake is when working efficiently?
Still the dirt ingress to deal with though, and possible drag.
Badger.


 
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:22:57 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I think you could probably get away with a disc slightly smaller than the
>std drum, due to the torque multiplication of the diffs. After all, look how
>totally overpowered a std transmission brake is when working efficiently?
>Still the dirt ingress to deal with though, and possible drag.

An issue with disc brakes for parking is that if they get hot in
normal driving (handbrake left slightly on?) they expand slightly. If
the handbrake is applied whilst hot and then the disc contracts it
shrinks away from the pad, losing clamping force, drums work the other
way.

AJH
 
AJH wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:22:57 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I think you could probably get away with a disc slightly smaller than the
>>std drum, due to the torque multiplication of the diffs. After all, look
>>how totally overpowered a std transmission brake is when working
>>efficiently? Still the dirt ingress to deal with though, and possible
>>drag.
>
> An issue with disc brakes for parking is that if they get hot in
> normal driving (handbrake left slightly on?) they expand slightly. If
> the handbrake is applied whilst hot and then the disc contracts it
> shrinks away from the pad, losing clamping force, drums work the other
> way.
>
> AJH

Discs do not expand significantly when hot (well, not in the direction of
the pads, anyway). Expansion is proportional to the distance involved
(normal to the pad/shoe) - with a drum, the distance is the diameter of the
drum, but with a disc it is the thickness of the disc. this is one reason
why discs are better for service brakes. But your expansion scenario is
another reason why the drum may be better as a parking brake - if dragging,
as it heats up and expands, the drum moves away from the shoes and will
ease the amount of damage, at least slightly. where with the disc there
would be no such effect.

As far as Brian's idea goes that you can get away with a smaller diameter
disc than drum, I'm afraid that won't wash - the size is not dictated by
the leverage, which is what he is talking about, but the swept area - which
will have to be larger in diameter for a disc rather than a drum seeing
that the inside radius of the swept area is limited by the speedo drive
housing size, and the drum mounting flange on the transfer case output
flange. Too little swept area will result in the brake being too easily
overheated with typical misuse or emergency use, and will also wear too
rapidly.

JD
 
In article <[email protected]>, AJH
<[email protected]> writes
>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:22:57 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I think you could probably get away with a disc slightly smaller than the
>>std drum, due to the torque multiplication of the diffs. After all, look how
>>totally overpowered a std transmission brake is when working efficiently?
>>Still the dirt ingress to deal with though, and possible drag.
>
>An issue with disc brakes for parking is that if they get hot in
>normal driving (handbrake left slightly on?) they expand slightly. If
>the handbrake is applied whilst hot and then the disc contracts it
>shrinks away from the pad, losing clamping force, drums work the other
>way.

I wouldn't want to use a Landy handbrake whilst driving!


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY, BRISTOL www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
On or around Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:45:56 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>I wouldn't want to use a Landy handbrake whilst driving!
>

very bad idea, it can result in broken things.

however, in a brake-failure-downhill scenario, I'd attempt to stop it with
the handbrake, and risk the possiblity that it might not go again.

AIUI, half-shafts can fail.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> however, in a brake-failure-downhill scenario, I'd attempt to stop it with
> the handbrake, and risk the possiblity that it might not go again.
>
> AIUI, half-shafts can fail.

Or driveshafts. And (not in a Landrover) I have seen the handbrake
backing plate torn completely off the rear of the gearbox by applying a
cardon shaft handbrake at speed!

That said I have used the handbrake to stop in a series II that suddenly
decided that it didn't have brakes any longer - not a nice experience
and it made some very interesting noises and shudders. And tore a
gearbox mount apart.


--
EMB
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> On or around Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:45:56 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>I wouldn't want to use a Landy handbrake whilst driving!
>>
>
> very bad idea, it can result in broken things.
>
> however, in a brake-failure-downhill scenario, I'd attempt to stop it with
> the handbrake, and risk the possiblity that it might not go again.
>
> AIUI, half-shafts can fail.

Much less likely to have a half shaft fail on a full time four wheel drive
than on a Series as the hand brake effectively works on all four wheels. In
any case failures will occur when there is a lot of slack in the
transmission AND the handbrake is applied abruptly. However, if you are
travelling at any speed, are loaded and/or going down hill, the handbrake
will be grossly overheated before you stop, and will, at the least, require
major repairs. But in the case of brake failure or even the loss of one
circuit, the use of (and damage to) the handbrake may well be the lesser
evil.
JD
 
On or around Fri, 19 Aug 2005 06:37:01 +1000, JD <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Much less likely to have a half shaft fail on a full time four wheel drive
>than on a Series as the hand brake effectively works on all four wheels. In
>any case failures will occur when there is a lot of slack in the
>transmission AND the handbrake is applied abruptly. However, if you are
>travelling at any speed, are loaded and/or going down hill, the handbrake
>will be grossly overheated before you stop, and will, at the least, require
>major repairs. But in the case of brake failure or even the loss of one
>circuit, the use of (and damage to) the handbrake may well be the lesser
>evil.

exactly. I've had a circuit failure in the disco, and that leaves you with
not much braking. Also tried stopping it with no servo, which is pretty
difficult. The 109" with it's non-servo drums stops a good deal better...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
George Orwell (1903 - 1950) Animal Farm
 
"Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi
>
> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>
> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
> the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
> properly needing much adjustment.
>
> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with
> a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or
> cable.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Cheers
> Tom
> V8 90
>
>

Thanks for the replies, a few issues i hadn't considered.
Looking through Microcat, the handbrake actuating mechanism seems to be
improved on the later Defenders (direct cable pull rather than the rod) and
does away with the 3 pistons & rollers block unit which is the cause of the
problem. might see if i can fit a 2nd hand one of those.

Tom


 

"Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi
>
> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>
> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the shoes,
> the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from returning
> properly needing much adjustment.
>
> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum with
> a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or
> cable.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Cheers
> Tom
> V8 90
>
>

Opened this months Total Offroad and saw this:
http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Brake.asp

Hurrah!

Tom
4.6 V8 90


 
Tom Gilmour wrote:

>
> "Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Hi
>>
>> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
>> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>>
>> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the
>> shoes, the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from
>> returning properly needing much adjustment.
>>
>> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum
>> with a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage or
>> cable.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tom
>> V8 90
>>
>>
>
> Opened this months Total Offroad and saw this:
> http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Brake.asp

Is it me, or there is nothing protecting the disk from whatever could happen
to it?

Just wondering.

Fred

 
I thought the same as you Fred.
It does look a tad 'exposed'. Having said that, it's smaller size would mean
it is more tucked up out of the way behind the transfer box.

Stew

--
1990 Ninety 2.5 n/a D (Jasmine) - the off-road toy
Ex- Freelander Td4 5dr owner - the worst vehicle I have ever had!!!
New Jeep Cherokee Ltd 2.8CRD Auto - freelander replacement.


"Fred Labrosse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Gilmour wrote:
>
>>
>> "Tom Gilmour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Does anyone know of a better solution to the handbrake drum on 90's,
>>> 110's, Disco's, etc.
>>>
>>> Standard setup is heavy, bulky, fills with mud which wears down the
>>> shoes, the small rollers inside gum up and prevent the shoes from
>>> returning properly needing much adjustment.
>>>
>>> Am looking for something like a small disc brake in place of the drum
>>> with a simple mechanical (not hydraulic) caliper - operated by linkage
>>> or
>>> cable.
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Tom
>>> V8 90
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Opened this months Total Offroad and saw this:
>> http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Brake.asp
>
> Is it me, or there is nothing protecting the disk from whatever could
> happen
> to it?
>
> Just wondering.
>
> Fred
>


 
On or around Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:46:44 +0100, Fred Labrosse <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Tom Gilmour wrote:
>
>>
>> Opened this months Total Offroad and saw this:
>> http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Brake.asp
>
>Is it me, or there is nothing protecting the disk from whatever could happen
>to it?
>
>Just wondering.

well, apart from being behind the T-box and enclosed by chassis rails...

the existing drum brake protrudes below the T-box so can get hit on the
ground, their disc being smaller doesn't.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Too Busy: Your mind is like a motorway. Sometimes it can be jammed by
too much traffic. Avoid the jams by never using your mind on a
Bank Holiday weekend.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
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