DEFENDER 90 TD5 CHASSISCHASSIS

On series Land Rovers the chassis number was stamped on the front dumb iron, one of the first places to rot out, on the ones I owned anyway, so the majority had no visible ID on the chassis after a few years, that could make life complicated these days.

blue beasty said:

The whole thing is a bit of a grey area, even the stamping of new replacement chassis' isn't clear which is why Marshlands (iirc) wont do it for you.

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Perhaps that's where the advice to cut the chassis number out of your old chassis and keep it with the vehicle comes from.

waldershelf said:

Perhaps that's where the advice to cut the chassis number out of your old chassis and keep it with the vehicle comes from.

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That's my understanding yes. That in itself doesn't satisfy the rules but should be convincing enough that there is no criminal intent should anyone start digging. Your not supposed to stamp a chassis yourself as that's supposed to be inspected and evidenced.

There's nothing to stop anyone from doing so though and criminal intent is far more likely with ID and no chassis than a chassis with no ID. The rules make it tricky if legitimate though.

Sorry guys, just to make this clear.
There will not be 2 vehicles on the road with the same chassis number, this would be highly illegal. I have rebuilt my own vehicle onto a galvanised chassis and think that the original chassis is too good to scrap as it is not in any way rotten. This is why I put a new rear crossmember on it etc.
Just puzzles me as to why companies can sell galv chassis' with no ID and get away with it and I cannot sell one with no ID even though I can prove without any doubt it is mine and all above board.
Like I said in a private pm to Blue beasty, if I have caused a problem please remove the add. I am very sorry to hear that you have been the victim of vehicle theft waldershelf, I too know this pain first hand, not nice at all. I am very sorry if I have caused you any upset.
Atb
Alex

The problem with all this is the rules the DVLA impose on us, for 2 reasons. 1) to ensure vehicles that are put on the road outside the type approval system are safe and 2) to control the recycling of stolen parts.

I don't have the relevant info to hand but IIRC it's quite clear about using a "new" chassis in that you can do it and reusing a second hand chassis which you can't.

Crowblind, does the chassis which you are selling have a chassis number stamped on it? if so your VIN and reg number are tied to it, I appreciate it's very easy to cut out the number and weld in a piece of plate physically removing the ID. When you fitted your new galv chassis whether or not it had a number stamped on it you effectively transferred the number to it. This is where the dilemma arises, legally, you have two chassis with the same ID even if neither has a number stamped on it, It's stupid I know but that is the crux problem and why it can end up in tears if the DVLA get involved. Because the situation where two vehicles have the same ID, no matter how tenuous that connection is, is not allowed one could end up being crushed.

Imagine the situation you have your lovely Land Rover with its nice shiny galvanised chassis, you are driving it round happy as a sand boy. You sell your chassis on and the buyer rebuilds his Land Rover on your old chassis using his original ID.

Then it all turns sour, the guy has his Land Rover stolen and the thief runs over and kills a pedestrian. The police get involved and have the vehicle inspected and they discover it's not got it's original chassis, at this point it doesn't matter whether the chassis has a number on it or not. The plod talk to the guy and being honest tells them that he bought your old chassis, all quite open and above board or so you think. However, the police say is he's driving a ringer and it's got the wrong number/VIN plates because the ID is goes with the chassis not with the bit of plate riveted to the bulkhead. Then what happens then is your lovely Land Rover gets crushed because it has no ID and is running on false plates and the guy you sold the chassis to gets your VIN/reg numbers, loses his numbers as his chassis has been scrapped and everybody gets their collars felt. Unlikely as it may seem but it could and has happened the police (nearly?) always crush ringers.

Hi Waldershelf,

I appreciate what you have written above, I think Crowblinds original post has raised quite a valid question.

How does it work if the following happens ,( I have not read the DVLA requirements , does it specify a brand new unused chassis?)

Legitimate owner of vehicle, buys a new galv chassis and fits it to his LR, transfers numbers via stamping from old chassis to new chassis. cuts out old section of chassis which has number on it and places on mantlelpiece of a reminder of good times. Everything is legal and above board.

Now the old chassis has a rectangular hole in it , but otherwise is found to be in reasonably good condition. ( or as in Crowblinds case, he changed the rear CM to make it usable).

If another owner has a vehicle with all the legal paperwork but a rusty chassis, could the number be transferred to the revitalised , with a rectangular hole chassis , by removing the old chassis number and welding it into the revitalised chassis purchased from the first vehicle owner?

Just a question as I can see how this could get murky, and the above scenario is all understood to be above board morally wise. But does anyone know about the legality of it?

Cheers

Don't want to muddy the water on this already unclear issue, but I have booked my defender into the people at Richards chassis to have a new chassis fitted in April, my understanding is that when you fit a new chassis which has no previous identity attached to it then it is regarded as a repair part, and the original identity passes to the new part, BUT I thought that currently the old chassis had to be cut up as it had lost its legitimate identity.

Now what I don't see, if the number is cut from the old chassis does it then fall into the same category of the new one being fitted to my defender? i.e. it becomes a part with no fixed identity and could be fitted as a legitimate spare on different machine providing the existing number is transferred from that vehicle and all connection of that number is taken away from the removed chassis.
Sorry if this only makes things more complex.

I'm pretty sure the presence of the actual numbers on the chassis is not legally relevant, it's the chassis provenance/history that matters, in that if it came to it you would have to prove legal ownership of the chassis and to do that you would have to somewhere along the line identify the original vehicle it came from.( Easy with a new chassis a receipt for a new chassis with no prior history.) Then you are back to the nightmare scenario where two vehicles in the eyes of the law/DVLA have the same identity and one honest guy who's just trying to keep his rusty motor on the road ends up getting his pride and joy crushed as a ringer. I honestly don't know my way through this minefield any better that anyone else but I do know I wouldn't try and sell a chassis without it's V5.

I mentioned earlier in this thread I've had two Land rovers stolen. One of them was recovered by the police months later and I was asked to visit a police station in Nottinghamshire to identify my vehicle, odd I thought. When my S111 88" diesel went off my drive it was a very tidy "Y" reg in blue with a roof rack, bull bar nice wheels and tyres, a full carpeted, cloth interior La Salle headlining and door cards, a really nice motor. The vehicle I was asked to look was a scabby poorly painted green "N" reg thing with bald tyres on rusty wheels . the roof rack, bull bar, wheels and tyres and the nice interior had all been replaced with stuff out of a skip. The police said the engine number matched mine but they couldn't be sure about the rest of it, the front dumb iron had been recently been replaced so no chassis number and the VIN plate was chucked in the dash. I positively identified the vehicle as mine, little things like the original utility company number that I had never managed to completely erase from the dash. The brackets that I made to attach a child seat to the bulkhead between the front two seats and a host of other things that had my handiwork all over them.

The upshot of all this was the guy who was trying to sell it was charged with receiving stolen goods, specifically the engine. I was paid out by the insurance company and the Landy went to the crusher as its identity could not be positively confirmed. Not exactly the same scenario as this thread but it does illustrate how easy it is to end up with your pride and joy in the crusher through no fault of your own. I don't know if the guy who was arrested trying to sell my Land Rover was the thief or an innocent third party but he could potentially be a normal bloke who lost out financially and picked up a criminal record for buying and selling a dodgy motor. Whatever the circumstances he couldn't satisfy the police as to the history and proper title to the vehicle so off to the crusher it went, I positively identified it as mine but that was not good enough either.

This perhaps goes some way to explaining my perspective on this complex, grey area and why I might seem to be on my high horse sometimes. Sorry.

If the chassis number us completely removed from the original and said id is retained along with my rechassied vehicle then I would of thought without its number it would be no different to buying a marsland or Richards without a number on. Either way someone is buying a good solid chassis with no number. It's all very baffling indeed.
I could maybe understand it a bit more if when you bought a new chassis from the above you had to have it stamped and logged with dvla but it's seems you don't, so I can't see a difference in selling a chassis with no number when the buyer has to legitimately have their own number to transfer over. All very puzzling indeed.