Crud, fuel pressure, and smoke problems!!!

Hi this is my first proper post to the forums. Yes, the reason I am posting is because I am seeking advice to solve the problems I am encountering. I don’t actually run a land rover but what I have is a Freight Rover Sherpa 310 from 1989 (which is what then became the Leyland Daf 400 series that same year and in 1997 it evolved as the LDV convoy). What I do have in common with the Land Rover is the diesel engine! Its the 2.5 diesel N/A 12J that is found on the 90 & 110 Landys. I am also a complete novice when it comes to mechanics but I am willing to have a go at fixing a problem using my brain in combinmation with what I have in the toolbox!

Ok….so that’s the introduction! The background to the problem I am encountering is the smokescreen of exhaust fumes produced on startup and also when i am accelerating through the gears. It’s a slightly blue smoke that billows quite heavily! Also, I would say that the engine feels like it is not producing as much power as I would expect. This is noticeable when encountering hills and the acceleration seems poor to me. Believe me I don’t expect a sports car style performance but, having owned 1 litre engined petrol cars in the past I think that the performance of my 2.5 diesel should be equal to or greater than what I am getting at the moment from the sherpa.

Given the problem of the excessive smoke form the exhaust and the looming of the due date for the MOT, I decided to tackle the problem myself as I am certain that it will fail the emissions test at a visual level (this is part of the test?). So I changed the oil & filter, then the fuel filter. The fuel filter was obrown and there was a lot of pale yellow brown crud inside, looked almost like big lumps of limescale to me, but I guess that this crud could be a combination of all sorts! I primed the fuel system using the lift pump & opening the bleed valve on the injector pump. I could get about 4 to 6 pulls on the lift pump before it would lose pressure. Then I would have to leave it for about 20 to 30 seconds and I could pump it a bit more until fuel was flowing from the bleed valve. With this done I tightened the bleed valve and had to crank engine continuously for about 45 seconds before I finally got it started. Still smoking!!!! The next day the startup from cold required the normal amount of cranking, same amount of smoke, so I decided to put some Wynns injector cleaner in with an almost full tank of fuel. Drove about 26 miles but still the problem was as bad as ever!!!!

Having read a few forum posts regarding injection pump timing I decided to try CharlesY ‘s method for adjusting the pump timing. I did the test by loosening the injector pipes one at a time with the at the engine side with it running. The expected difference to running on 3 cylinders was the same for each cylinder. Although I would say that the force of the spray at cylinders 1 & 2 was a bit more than at cylinders 3 & 4! Not sure if that is of any significance.

In order to advance the timing I had to remove 3 of the injector pipes because I could not get proper access to the retaining bolt that held the injector pump in place to the engine brace. Having advanced the timing by about 1mm i reattached the injector pipes and turned the engine over with all 4 pipes loose to expel the air at the engine side. The pipes for cylinders 1, 3, 4 eventually seeped fuel. However, pipe 2 would not bleed fuel! I removed and inspected the pipe, was able to blow air through it, so I tried again. Still no joy!


By this point I had exhausted the battery! So after a recharge I tighten all the injector pipes. I then decided to make sure that the injector pump was filled with fuel so I loosened the bleed valve on the injector pump and tried the lift pump…. However, the lift pup would allow about 4 pulls, losing pressure each time before it eventually had no pressure. The bleed valve would seep fuel during the pump operation. Having got this far I thought that I would try my luck with starting the engine. It turned over but the battery soon ran out of decent cranking power after about 20 seconds.

With the battery once more on re-charge I am now wondering about my predicament!

• Is the lift pump dead or full of crud?
• Is the fuel pump in the tank also full of crud?....Can this be cleared by using an airline to blow air down the fuel line? I don’t want to be taking the tank off to investigate as the securing bolts look well rusted and I fear for making a right old hash of it!
• Finally, will crud in these places result in poor fuel pressure? and could poor fuel pressure lead to the kind of slightly blue billowy smoke from the exhaust?

I don’t want to get out of my depth poking around in places where its best left to an experienced mechanic with decent tools! However, I am loathe to spending money at a garage to sort this problem out as it does seem to be one of those issues that requires lengthy investigation and I am not willing to spend hundereds of pounds on a 20 year old van that has a lot of obvious rust!

I know that this is rather lengthy post! But, I am hoping that someone can give me some advice as to a plan of action and the level of competence required!


Kris

Hello!

What a really well written description of the problem you are having! Most people will ask something like "may car's smoking... what's wrong?", so you will certainly get the help that you are looking for!

First off, I can tell you that any smoke with a hint of blue is typically produced as a result of burning oil. These old 12J engines (one of which I have myself) do tend to run on their own oil once they are old and worn, especially if it hasn't been looked after especially well by any previous owners. When I got my 90 in May last year the engine didn't run very smooth and it did have its problems, but a good few months of running seemed to sweeten things up a little. I have just recently strip down and rebuilt my engine including four new pistons (the previous ones had all cracked), new bearings and a cylinder deglaze in each bore, now the thing runs like new and pulls like a train. Do not, however, let the fact that it slows down on hills or inclines worry you. These engine loose their ability to pump fuel efficiently under strain and thus power is lost. The 19J with the turbo bolted on will give it a little more power but none the less these engines are still notoriously crap on hills and any incline of considerable length. My rebuild has given it a fair bit more oomph, but certainly not enough to consider it an engine worthy of pulling up hills at speed.

You seem to be on the right line replacing fuel, oil and air filters, but then again is this really enough? If I were in your shoes I think that I would be tempted to change the engine oil and run a little bit of white spirit through the fuel system along with the diesel. This is an illegal practice on the roads but if its something that you're not concerned about it might just help to shift some gunk down the lines and then burn it off. With regards to the smoke, you may need to adjust the amount of fuel that the injection pump feeds into the engine its self. This is not necessarily adjusted by adjusting the fuel pump timing (although that will get the timing in correspondence with the fuel injection absolutely spot on), but by adjusting a long bolt on the engine side of the pump. I'm assuming that your engine does still have the standard Lucas / CAV injection pump? If so, lay underneath your van, looking up at the injection pump. If you look at the side of the injection pump body nearest the engine you should see a long bolt pointing out towards the engine block. Turning this bolt in slightly will increase the amount of fuel injected, turning it out slightly will reduce the amount of fuel injected (or is that the other way round!? ) Keep making slight adjustments until the smoke is reduced massively. It may just be over-fueling of your engine which is causing the starting issues that you are describing.

With regards to your lift pump, the lever will loose its stiffness (or feeling of effectiveness) because it works on a cam and depending on where abouts the cam rests when the engine is stopped determines how responsive the lever is. Generally the best way to check how well the lift pump is working is to remove the fuel pipe between the lift pump and the injection pump and then have someone turn the engine over on the ignition. If there's a load of fuel it's fine, if there's not, it probably is knackered! Just so you know, my lift pump works fine but the lever looses its effectiveness after a few pumps too.

It might just be a case of getting it running and then running it hard for a short while until whatever is slowing it down is sorted out. Also check the air filter housing and paper filter for oil. If there's any sign of moisture in there, swap the filter for a new one. The engine will not be able to draw the air in that it needs! You could also try disconnecting the pipe from the air intake manifold on startup (just make sure that there's no crap that can get sucked in) and see how well it starts. That could well diagnose the problem for you instantly.

Finally, and I know what this may sound daft, you have held the key on the glow plug relay for 30 seconds before attempting to start the engine have you not? If it's been sat for a while the glow plugs may well be shot, and you really need to give them a good chance to glow red hot before it'll start. A new set of glowplugs with a good connection may also make the world of difference!

Hope you get it sorted! They're bloody good engines
-Pos

Hi Kris I had the same problem that you have you say in your post that the injection pump moved 1 mm at first mine would only move a small amount due to it being in place for 19 years but after a while it began to move quite freely in the end it moved by 5mm and it is loads better it still smokes on start up but clears once i start driving and the power is loads better hills are always an issue with these engines good luck it drove me mad as well!!!!

Had That Problem Up Untill This Week, A Massive Screen Of Smoke Up Untill I Hit 3000 Revs, And Rather Low Power. The Injection Pump May Need To Be Moved And The Timing Belt May Have Jumped A Tooth.
I Shifted My Injector Around 1.5mm And The Smoke Cleared Totally After A Few Days Of Running The Exhaust Only Kicks Out What It's Meant To

If it's in a Sherpa is it not a 12J engine - it is a 15J.

The way the injection pumps are mounted between these two types is quite different. The 15J Sherpa mounts the injection pump much higher, and much handier.

It is easy to adjust the 15J timing by rotating the pump, WITHOUT taking off any injection pipes. All you need are suitable spanners. I used to have an Defender90 with a 15J engine, and did it often enough.

However, just because Slob, or Redhand, or Ming, and people like them can "do things" does not automatically mean every other LandyZoner can just up and do those things.

CharlesY

Hi Pos, mnc, Porthos0, and CharlesY!

Thanks for your replies to my post. It is good to know that i am on the right track with investigating the injection pump timing!

RE: the engine model. Yes, i also thought that it should be a 15J engine. However on top of the engine block towards the rear on the drivers side is a serial number that is stamped as 12J178040. I guess that makes it a 12J? Also, the workshop manual says that the engine number should be stamped on the LH side above the alternator, and i do not see anything stamped there.

I have finally had some time and some good weather to have another go at getting this enginhe working. After some research I re-bled the fuel system - this time ensuring that the ignition was on to open the fuel solenoid whilst operating the lift pump. I could see the air moving back from the injection pump to the fuel filter so i cracked open the bleed valve on that in turn.

Everything was looking good and then i made a hash of things by overtightening the bleed valve on top of the injection pump...causing the valve to shear off! GRRR! Honestly i only gave it about 1/16 of a turn more than the point at which the fuel stopped leaking out of it just to make sure it was airtight. Obviously 1/16 of a turn too much!

I was able to remove the complete valve assembly and it looks like i should be able to easily replace it.

I Have done a ring round of my local spare parts places, including a land rover specialist, and breakers but nobody seems to be able to supply me with just the valve assembly. The only parts i have been offered are either the complete injection pump or the fuel solenoid or nothing!!!

Just wondering if anyone here might have the bleed valve from an old injection pump? Its on the LUCAS CAV. I will post a pic of what i need (in its broken state!). Obviously i will pay you for the part and P&P charges and thank you very muchly if you can supply me.

Oh.. and i did try and araldite it back together but the valve popped off again under pressure. Just thinking... should there be an O-Ring between the top screw and the valve itself?

kris

When you over tightened it, would the bolt just keep rotating? Chances are they you've stripped the aluminium thread on the injection pump body as opposed to shearing the bolt (unless it has snapped off of corse!). I did the exact same thing with mine earlier this month, but my local specialist drilled the hole slightly larger, tapped it and gave me a new short bolt and o-ring, all for a fiver! (10 mins work, but I do get on with them well)

If you can repair it by a means of "botching" with araldite etc. go ahead, just to see whther or not you can get the engine running. It's not worth spending money on if its a non-runner. If you get it running, then consider the repairs!

You must ensure that it is airtight, but never think I'll just turn it once more because what has happened will always happen!

-Pos

I was tightening the top screw and the hollow bolt it screws into cracked! The thread appears to be fine...thankfully! As I had to unscrew the threaded part from the injector pump. Have been running around all afternoon to get this sorted. Finally, found a diesel specialist who was very helpful. They had a good look around for a 2nd hand piece but they had all been removed previously. So i had to order a new part. £5.26 plus VAT.... unfortunately i might have to pay postage on top as there weren't any other orders due for that supplier today. Which i was told could add up to £10 on top for next day delivery.....eek!

You could have just had a look in Homebase or B&Q for a bolt the right size and then cut it down a little! Still, you've done the right thing buying the proper bolt because if you need to bleed it again, you only need to undo it a couple of turns. The bolt has a split right down one side of the thread so that fuel can come up and out. I'd need to take the bolt right the way out.

ok... i fitted the new bleed valve and finally got the engine started again this evening! still smoking just as much....hmm....

Pos, i will have a play with that bolt you said regulates the fuel flow tomorrow morning and see if that makes any difference and let you know how i get on!

Alright good luck! I don't now whether you need to give it a few full turns or just make some very minor adjustment because I've never had to adjust it myself. It's a bloody long bolt so I can only assume that it has a lot of adjustment on it. Mine looks more out than in, but then again I have no idea how long it is. Can't do any harm trying to adjust it though can it!?

-Pos