Cooking oil in TD5

LR90 said:

didnt give your name did you?

Looking forward to the outcome but i expect it will be a reply of

NO! who are you? where do you? live we want to inspect your vehicle and then estimate how much you've used and then bill you for tax!! :doh:

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They were my thought exactly.............as I have a "new" vehicle they are welcome to examine whatever they want. Whatever the outcome, at least we will know. The result of getting a tug and dipped would be exactly the same whether you have knowledge of the law or not!
I spend a lot of time around the docks and major motorway check points for VOSA and multi agency checks. I can't afford to lose a £8000 vehicle to save £1500 over the time I own it.
It is looking increasingly that the only substitute fuel will be Bio or SVO up to 2500 litres a year.

i'm not sure what the law is on the mineral oil but i know for a fact kerosene isn't allowed to be used as fuel, so it is well worth checking what you can and can't use, and yeah petrol is allowed as it's a duty paid fuel

heres the link for people interested - vegetableoildiesel.co.uk - LEGAL ISSUES WITH BLENDING - Powered by XMB


also i heard but never really confirmed that the dye used in red diesel is used in transmission fluid which if you get dipped would show up as you having used red diesel (particularly you charlsey using various waste oils) just something to look into, not saying its 100% fact, but can't be too careful!

I have been trying to find a supplier of SVO at a sensible price. There is nothing cheap standing out. Even WVO is selling for quite high prices. Can WVO simply be filtered to 5 microns and used....any water issues?

trucker5774 said:

I have been trying to find a supplier of SVO at a sensible price. There is nothing cheap standing out. Even WVO is selling for quite high prices. Can WVO simply be filtered to 5 microns and used....any water issues?

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Me to I did buy it direct from suppliers in bulk at about 50p but now it has ran out and now i find people paying good money for WVO with lumps/water in it WHAT THE HELL!!!
so my thoughts on using used engine oil which I have an endless supply.. would be nice. don't forget these oil when purchased have vat on so surly cant be taxed twice?? also it is WASTE so surly we are doing the councils a favour

Also you would have to separate the water out after filtering there is quite allot in my experience... What my friend does is use a type of large reusable silicone bag immersed in a second stage tank. the first stage separation tank he lets it settle & drains it from the bottom...

LR90 said:

Me to I did buy it direct from suppliers in bulk at about 50p but now it has ran out and now i find people paying good money for WVO with lumps/water in it WHAT THE HELL!!!
so my thoughts on using used engine oil which I have an endless supply.. would be nice. don't forget these oil when purchased have vat on so surly cant be taxed twice?? also it is WASTE so surly we are doing the councils a favour

Also you would have to separate the water out after filtering there is quite allot in my experience... What my friend does is use a type of large reusable silicone bag immersed in a second stage tank. the first stage separation tank he lets it settle & drains it from the bottom...

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It seems that from HMRC's point of view they are looking at excise duty rather than VAT. Part of what I read related to mineral oil being exempt from excise when used SOLELY as a lubricant

LR90 said:

so my thoughts on using used engine oil which I have an endless supply.. would be nice. don't forget these oil when purchased have vat on so surly cant be taxed twice?? also it is WASTE so surly we are doing the councils a favour

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unfortunately that would be too easy, the fuel duty and vat are both charged, the amount of money they make from fuel is colossal -

The government revenue from Fuel Duty was £25.894 billion in 2009, with a further £3.884 billion being raised from the VAT on the duty

and they say there isn't the funds to keep roads clear of snow and potholes

twelfty said:

.... also i heard but never really confirmed that the dye used in red diesel is used in transmission fluid which if you get dipped would show up as you having used red diesel .....

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Absolutely not! VOSA dont look for the colour red when they test for red diesel. A handful of photocopier toner would soon sort that out with no ill effects to your injectors or pumps.

They test for a series of chemical markers, a bit like DNA testing, that can not be easily removed or masked, unless you have access to specialist filtration machines costing hundreds of thousands of pounds making it unviable to even try.

Shifty1962 said:

Absolutely not! VOSA dont look for the colour red when they test for red diesel. A handful of photocopier toner would soon sort that out with no ill effects to your injectors or pumps.

They test for a series of chemical markers, a bit like DNA testing, that can not be easily removed or masked, unless you have access to specialist filtration machines costing hundreds of thousands of pounds making it unviable to even try.

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then maybe it's that, that is in the atf like i say nothing concrete just something i saw on a thread, i thought part of the "dipping" process was checking for permanently dyed components like fuel filter and stuff?

They put the red into "red" diesel by pumping it through Fullers Earth which imparts the colour. During the early days of zero rated agricultural diesel it was a quick and easy way to tell the difference. As far as I know they still do it this way and it is this red tinge that is visible in filters and lines.

They could completely leave out any colouring and still be able to tell the difference with modern test equipment. As people got smarter the need for chemical markers was born. They may well insert such markers into other products but I doubt they are the same as for red diesel as this would leave them open to legal challenges. Imagine being stood in the dock "accussed of using red diesel" when really you had been using ATF or such like? There would be no case to answer as the courts require accuracy in respect of alleged offences. Even duty evasion ones.

When all is said and done the final decision as to what you put in your fuel tank is down to you - as are any consequences of doing so.

I'm still waiting on the reply from HMRC about the use of engine oil as fuel. In the mean time I had a solicitor friend go over the wording.............doesn't look good for the use of anything other than veg oil

Shifty1962 said:

They put the red into "red" diesel by pumping it through Fullers Earth which imparts the colour. During the early days of zero rated agricultural diesel it was a quick and easy way to tell the difference. As far as I know they still do it this way and it is this red tinge that is visible in filters and lines.

They could completely leave out any colouring and still be able to tell the difference with modern test equipment. As people got smarter the need for chemical markers was born. They may well insert such markers into other products but I doubt they are the same as for red diesel as this would leave them open to legal challenges. Imagine being stood in the dock "accussed of using red diesel" when really you had been using ATF or such like? There would be no case to answer as the courts require accuracy in respect of alleged offences. Even duty evasion ones.

When all is said and done the final decision as to what you put in your fuel tank is down to you - as are any consequences of doing so.

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yeah i see what you mean, however what if there were just as severe consequences for using atf as there is red diesel, and that is why it's got the same chemical markers? i'd be really interested to see what comes of truckers' inquiry i'd say there's a very fine line between what is acceptable and what isn't, at a guess i'd say engine oil isn't without fuel duty, but then if you have run it but don't have it in the tank then you could say an oil leak might have caused there to be engine oil deposits in the tank and there wouldn't be a great deal they could do about it i'd imagine

You can rest assured that if you changed a component of your vehicle, such as the aforementioned fuel tank, and you were involved in a serious injury or fatal collision, your vehicle would be forensically examined. Any potential offences would be investigated - including contacting your insurer to see if mods invalidated your policy.

Great thread though.

If you worked out how to run your diesel engine on your own p*ss I reckon the revenue would try to have you for fuel duty evasion. It is an easy source of income for them and is why they try to screw every last penny out of the honest motorist. I've no idea whether things such as ATF have markers in them but it would not surprise me to find they have. The majority of what you pay for fuel is "TAX" so anything you do to run your engine on alternative fuels is technically tax evasion. Just as a bit of useless info did you know that the military have been running there diesels on used sump oil since at least World War II?

Shifty1962 said:

If you worked out how to run your diesel engine on your own p*ss I reckon the revenue would try to have you for fuel duty evasion. It is an easy source of income for them and is why they try to screw every last penny out of the honest motorist. I've no idea whether things such as ATF have markers in them but it would not surprise me to find they have. The majority of what you pay for fuel is "TAX" so anything you do to run your engine on alternative fuels is technically tax evasion. Just as a bit of useless info did you know that the military have been running there diesels on used sump oil since at least World War II?

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yeah thats true :/ didn't know about the army thing interesting!

reading up on the mineral oil burners in the us most of them say heat it to 70c/160f and an older diesel engine will run it for a good 50k with no issues as long as the filter is changed regularly bit of a mission but if you fancy reading up on a discussion about it -

Can used engine oil be used as fuel for a diesel car? | Answerbag

Thats why the TD5 is good for this as it heats the fuel which is returned to the tank eventually heating the contents of the tank. No need for heaters. The longer the engine runs the hotter the tank becomes the easier the oil will flow.

Shifty1962 said:

Thats why the TD5 is good for this as it heats the fuel which is returned to the tank eventually heating the contents of the tank. No need for heaters. The longer the engine runs the hotter the tank becomes the easier the oil will flow.

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yeah it's a good system for long runs, would be nice if it heated it after the fuel tank and it would pretty much run anything lol

So the government could still dip you and fine/whatever you, if you have engine oil in there, because you havent paid fuel duty?

BAD NEWS
As expected you cannot use engine oil as a fuel without paying duty. Here is the reply I got from my email to HMRC


Thank you for your email regarding fuel substitutes..

You can use another mineral oil such as reclaimed engine or hydraulic oil, however duty will be payable. HODA section 6A(6) sets that duty rate as the same as the rate applicable to the fuel it is replacing or extending. Further details can be found in Contaminated, waste and recovered oils: How 'waste' oil should be treated for duty purposes

If you are intending to process recovered oil then you may be liable to register as a mineral oils producer.

From the information in your email you have a general overview regarding waste cooking oil. Basically, if you have produced
(i.e. only strained the used oil) in the last 12 months, or expect to produce in excess of 2,500 litres in the following 12 months, you would need to pay duty. The rate will be dependant on the quality of the biofuel and whether it meets the ¿diesel quality¿ as outlined in HODA s2AA

I must emphasise that the advice given is based on the information you supplied. If the nature of the transaction changes in technical detail, or the relevant details provided were incomplete or incorrect, we will not be bound by this ruling.

Yours faithfully,

Mrs M Vining
HM Revenue & Customs
Customs, International Trade & Excise
Website: www.hmrc.gov.uk/contactus

What a load of rubbish!!! Make rules up as they go along they do!