Clutch change issue...

Tech info:
Mazda HA 3.0L Diesel engine
LR LT77 Gearbox with V8 bellhousing

A company called M&D normally do these conversions but mine looks like a backyard job so I suspected the LR flywheel had been machined to fit the Mazda, which it seems is right.
I took my old clutch round to a few parts companies yesterday and they all pointed me at the 242mm clutch kits that come in the 110 2.5 Diesels, some 300TDI's and a couple of Series III's.
Everything lines up perfectly and seems to be exactly the same, only difference is the new pressure plate / cover is deeper than my old unit by about 15-20mm.
Is this going to be a problem?
The parts co. didn't seem to think so but I would imagine that as it's deeper and therefore the pressure plates protrude further towards the gearbox, that the throw out bearing will constantly be pressing the pressure plates inwards as the bellhousing is brought onto the engine and tightened. This would mean the clutch can never fully be engaged.

Or is there enough adjustment available to make this not an issue?

Sorry if this is the wrong section, didn't really know where to put it as it's not specifically range rover.

Cheers,
Sean.

Have you tried looking at the V8 clutch for that gearbox?

Nope, they just took the LUK numbers off my clutch and said 'thats the kit there, all the numbers cross reference to yours in these books'.
Haven't fitted it properly yet, just offered it all up to see how it fitted so I can always take it back but other than being deeper it's exactly the same.

So will the depth difference be an issue?
I didn't think about trying the V8. Cheers

Cross reference books are not always the most reliable. And if any of the dimensions are different then it's not the same clutch.

Yes, I would think that the extra depth will be an issue for the reasons you suggest. It will become obvious if the clutch release is 'bouncing' on the pressure plate fingers when you mate the engine to the box.

What is the LUK number that you have. Maybe I can try it with some motor factors here and see what they come up with.

Unfortunately I don't have it on me at the moment as I'm at work but I'll have a look and post it tonight.
I should have checked the V8, don't know why I didn't to be honest. It was originally a 3.9l V8 petrol so the clutch may have been ripped out of there but it's hard to tell what's original and what's not. Used to be an auto, now it's 5 speed manual. Has manual difflock so obviously the tx-case and gearbox are probably from a defender or disco.
Only info I can remember is that it's 242mm (measured accross the friction surface on the pressure plate rather than the clutch plate itself, is this correct?) and 23 splines on the clutch disc, though I'm sure that accounts for probably 90% of LR clutches

My release fork seems different to ones I've seen posted on here as well. It looks and feels like it's cast? The pivot point is very thick and solid, nowhere to weld a plate over to reinforce it as it's flat rather than grooved. Would that immediately suggest a type of clutch to you? Series?

Cheers

There are different LR part numbers for the Tdi clutchs and the V8 clutchs. Would also make sense if it is a V8 flywheel.

I have an old 300 Tdi clutch that I can check you measurements against and get back to you.

Land Rover V8 Series 101 TD5 Clutch Fork 576137 on eBay, also, Land Rover, Car Parts, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 01-Apr-09 16:59:10 BST)

That's what the release fork looks like.

Okay thanks for your help andy!

thats a standard v8, series clutch fork which is correct as it fits the v8 bellhousing. The v8 cluthes are if i remember correctly 10" rather than 9.5" in all the diesels and later series.
if its definately 9.5"/240mm then it could be a series, 90/110 diesel, 200/300 cover. all these will fit eachother though.
the fact its deeper may not be a major issue as the release bearing is only under pressure against the fingers when there is pressure on the clutch pedal. as long as there is enough movement in the clutch fork pivot and stroke length in the slave cylinder it will be fine.

Tig9619 said:

thats a standard v8, series clutch fork which is correct as it fits the v8 bellhousing. The v8 cluthes are if i remember correctly 10" rather than 9.5" in all the diesels and later series.
if its definately 9.5"/240mm then it could be a series, 90/110 diesel, 200/300 cover. all these will fit eachother though.

Click to expand...

It's definitely 242mm accross the friction surface on the cover. The clutch disc itself measures about 232-5mm.
So it's possible a whole host of clutches will fit the dowels and bolt pattern, but be different depths and spring rates?

Tig9619 said:

the fact its deeper may not be a major issue as the release bearing is only under pressure against the fingers when there is pressure on the clutch pedal. as long as there is enough movement in the clutch fork pivot and stroke length in the slave cylinder it will be fine.

Click to expand...

This is what I was hoping but 20mm seems a lot to me considering the little movement the release bearing actually does for all the pedal work, and I'd like to be pretty sure before I bolt it up, 'cause if I damage something or put any wear into it the motor factors won't take it back.
If it's possible a 20mm depth difference could be accommodated then I might try it but I'm sceptical?
Wouldn't this make the bite point on my clutch ridiculously high on the pedal?

possibly. I would try and find out what clutch it is first. last time i measured a clutch friction plate it was exactly 240mm and the cover the same. you may have some odd bits by the looks of it. A clutch doesnt have to be specific to the engine, vehicle or gearbox. you can make a 'kit' out of different parts. In my 90 i have a tdi clutch plate behind a bmw m5 cover to match the engine.

What kit did you actually buy?

I don't remember the code for the kit but it's referenced off the numbers on my clutch by Partco.
They said it was for some series III's, 110's, maybe some 300TDI's and very early range rover. All diesel, mostly N/A but a couple of TD's.
No mention of petrol whatsoever.
That kit was £90.
The first place I went to went into a bit more detail and specifically said Series III's in the mid 80's, diesel. They cross referenced in a different book and seemed to come up with different numbers to partco. They measured the disc as 232mm rather than parto who measured the cover at 242. The clutch kit they suggested was £150. Didn't get to look at that one though 'cause they didn't have it in stock, hence why I went shopping elsewhere.

Yeah I understand, as long as I can get something that'll physically fit in there and bolt up nicely then it's job done!
Only strange thing is, both companies cross checked the numbers on both the cover AND the disc and all numbers pointed to the same kit.

Only problem is finding those bits :doh:
Oh well I suppose once I've found the parts once I don't have to go through this headache again

yeah i see your problem! how about taking the old stuff to a land rover parts dealer and checking them next to eachother, forgetting numbers altogether. Places like partco only do numbers and in this case is no good, you need a land rover supplier with lots of bits on the shelf and that can probably recognise the bits.

Yeah good idea, that'd be my best bet I guess.
Knowing my luck the only clutch they won't have on the shelf is the one I bloody need after a 25 mile trip down to the nearest dealer.

I'll take some pictures when I get home comparing the new and old units and post some measurements anyway in case anyone can recognise it.

Cheers

Right I've got the numbers and measurements here and a couple of pictures.
Quite embarrasing actually, there isn't THAT much difference between the height of the bodies of the covers.
Firstly LUK numbers:
Cover: 124 0014 10
Plate: 324 0068 10

Plate width: 235mm
Friction surface on cover width: 240/242mm (rough, used a ruler)
23 splines

The difference in the height of the 'bodies' of the covers is about 2mm, not the 15-20mm I'd guessed at (it looked HUGE, almost double the depth in partco for some reason).
However the difference between the height measured from the floor to the top of the sprung fingers is about 8mm with the old unit being 38ishmm and the new one being 46mmish.
You can see that the old unit is pretty scored and it's been heated up pretty bad so I'm thinking maybe they just bent in slightly and lost some tension.

So if we're talking an 8mm difference here, is it going to be alright going straight in? (Fingers crossed )

Pictures, not that they're any use,
Old units on the left.
Cover:


Throw out bearing:


Plate:

Is it possible to get a shorter release bearing? Or to mod the existing one to be shorter?
Doesn't look like it in the pic but they're both the same height. If I could shorten it my problems would be solved!

I shouldnt worry about it because as you said the old springs on the cover will have weakened slightly. when you tighten up the cover against the flywheel the springs pull in tight so will probably be the same. If there is only a difference of 8mm in spring height that should be lost when you tighten it up. Whos to say the old one wasnt 46mm when it was new!
The release bearing however looks strange to me. Never seen a land rover onr like that, they all are like the old one.

Yeah I thought the release was a bit strange, still, it's on there now so hopefully it works.
Just giving my arms a break before I try and haul the bloody thing back up and bolt it together
Fingers crossed it'll be alright. I think I was being over cautious to begin with because I've never done a clutch change in any car before so this one's a bit of a bitch to start with if I mucked it up and had to re-do it.

Before I go and finish it (coffee time first...) just so I'm 100%.. the side of the clutch plate where the springs and 'middle bit' protrude the most - does it go in facing the cover, not the flywheel? So if the ] bracket is the side that sticks out most, and | is the disc, i've put it in like this:
(flywheel) |] (cover) (gearbox)
I've read they can only go on one way, and that seemed the best way to me, but it technically would have fitted the other way as well but with very little clearance around the edge of the protruding bit.

should be written on it somewhere. if not have a look on the old one. I've done so many clutches but always ask myself the same question aswell!!

Glad you appear to be sorted.

I agree with Tig9616 regarding the spring 'fingers' and height differences.

Thanks for the help guys.

Been trying to get the ****er back on since my last post, it's not having any of it. Think I need an extra pair of hands.

I've got the handbrake drum jacked up, engine's jacked up by the flywheel to level it out and at the moment the bellhousing is just resting on the teeth of the flywheel about an inch away from the block, can't get it any further.
I used a broom handle as an alignment tool, though I do think it may have been slightly out of line after I tightened the cover.
I'm guessing the non-splined part of the input shaft is probably in the friction plate but the splines aren't engaging? Or would they have engaged by now if the bellhousing's that far on?

Is it worth taking it all back off and getting a better alignment tool or is it possible to do without being perfectly aligned?
Should be able to get someone else here soon to give a hand.