Carrying fuel in containers - the legality

brianp38dse said:

I took three full jerry cans over to France when they had the strikes years age i was in a transit going on holiday with the family so i had enough fuel to get down to the south with a stop part way to meat up with parents, then on the way back fill them back up as it was all kicking of here, no one datterd and eyelid at customs

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You woz lucky, on the way back, the customs burd in Le Havre, or was it Ouistreham? I forget, asked if I had any "bidons", she was asking everyone, I pointed to them lashed right at the front of the inside of the box trailer. not easy to get at. She asked if they were full or empty, so I said empty. She just let me go.
I did think about what I would have done if they had any in and they insisted on taking them off the trailer. i think I would have gone up and down the lines of cars and vans offering free top-ups until they were empty!

kermit_rr said:

The port rules don't make much sense. For example, I'm not allowed to take my landy thru the tunnel because it's powered by lpg, yet a campervan with a fridge that runs on lpg is perfectly ok.

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+1^

The only time I've carried a lot of petrol was, when I had to drive from Norfolk to the other side of Edinburgh....on Christmas day..I finished work at 08:00..

Often need petrol for the lawnmower/ strimmer/ chainsaw./ Wood chipper.
The local Tesco tries to insist you can only carry 10ltrs of fuel. I tend to buy 20 litres and just put the cans on the ground behind the car where they can't see them. It's only 5 miles to home, where they are put in a tin shed 50ft away from the house.

Diesel, I like to put in an occasional container of road diesel in the boat diesel tank, it definitely perks up old red diesel.

My Old Landy said:

On road, yes I agree. The OP and my comments are all directed at those of us who do green laning and the subsequent fuel consumption in the middle of nowhere

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Even in the v8 I never used more than a whole tank laning. Got very close to it mind.

goonarmy said:

Even in the v8 I never used more than a whole tank laning. Got very close to it mind.

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I have not run out (as it is a pita in a diesel) but it removes any worry and allows a pleasant day not to get ruined. I will also say my fuel gauge is not accurate. I go by miles munched that does not apply on green lanes!

My Old Landy said:

I have not run out (as it is a pita in a diesel) but it removes any worry and allows a pleasant day not to get ruined. I will also say my fuel gauge is not accurate. I go by miles munched that does not apply on green lanes!

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To be fair my fuel gauge was good. Revs went up, fuel went down, at about the same speed, never failed.

I think folk get a bit worked up about this for no good reason. It is only the fumes that are dangerous and as long as you are sensible and ensure the containers are well sealed there should be a problem. Obviously this is for the odd 20L can and not whole vans worth of plastic bottles!
Think back to the Glasgow Airport attack, this was a vehicle loaded with fuel and run into a door and set on fire, it didn't explode!
A little bit of common sense and good ventilation is all that is really required and if you think that you are on a death defying roller coaster ride that may result in instant death at any time driving a few miles home with a 5l plastic jerry can full of petrol in the car then maybe you really need to go and lie down in a dark room for a little while.

BruceB said:

I think folk get a bit worked up about this for no good reason. It is only the fumes that are dangerous and as long as you are sensible and ensure the containers are well sealed there should be a problem. Obviously this is for the odd 20L can and not whole vans worth of plastic bottles!
Think back to the Glasgow Airport attack, this was a vehicle loaded with fuel and run into a door and set on fire, it didn't explode!
A little bit of common sense and good ventilation is all that is really required and if you think that you are on a death defying roller coaster ride that may result in instant death at any time driving a few miles home with a 5l plastic jerry can full of petrol in the car then maybe you really need to go and lie down in a dark room for a little while.

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Then I need to go and lie down! Something you have perhaps forgotten to take into account and that's the driver driving too close behind you, getting very frustrated on a country road and carrying a double load of timber. We have many, many of these as the plantations are systematically being cleared and they do not do patience. They seem to think that travelling on your tail and revving their engine is somehow going to make you magically disappear - and I don't drive slowly! I do drive sensibly with consideration for others on country roads though - narrow roads, loaded tractor and trailers, wide loads of animal foods, loose animals and even holiday-makers enjoying a few short days of wonderful scenery!
I am certainly aware of the possible consequences of being hit whilst carrying 2 (or even up to five) x 5 litres of petrol, even over a short 6 mile journey. I do admire your confidence though.

Most things have a risk. When I used to do risk assessments we used numbers for each of the following;
Degree of possible harm.
Number of people at risk.
Frequency of occurrence.

If this number was too high you had to take steps to reduce the risk. You would have to take everything into account. So in this case you would have to consider the fuel type and it's dangers, quantity, robustness of container, position within the vehicle. Then the strength of the vehicle in case of an accident in different scenarios. And then of course, the journey and risk of an accident occuring on that journey.

It may well be the more dangerous aspect of carrying the fuel (thinking diesel) in containers inside the land rover is being hit by the said container in the case of an accident!

You have to assess the risk in each case.

It used to pee me off sometimes when some jobsworth would have you jumping through hoops when there was very little risk - I would like to see their risk assessment for crossing a road as I am sure it would include hi Viz vests, 10 mph speed limits, Marshalls, radios and first aid kits!

Dr Strangeglove said:

It used to pee me off sometimes when some jobsworth would have you jumping through hoops when there was very little risk - I would like to see their risk assessment for crossing a road as I am sure it would include hi Viz vests, 10 mph speed limits, Marshalls, radios and first aid kits!

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Indeed it would. I did the course on risk assessment too. They can be useful if working with people who really don't have a clue! On the whole, now I am retired, I sum it up in my head and do what feels correct

I once put some spray booths into the Peugeot Ryton plant. I was sealing the inside of some 1m high extract chambers. We were working to CDM regulations and I got a boll***ing for not wearing my hard hat. I explained that whilst wearing it I could not see what I was doing and it was a greater risk to wear it. It cut no ice and I had to wear it - I ended up hurting my neck as I kept jerking it every time my hat hit the top of the chamber - suffered with that for about 3 weeks.

I believe in health and safety, but true health and safety - not some academics box ticking version!

derwendolly said:

Then I need to go and lie down! Something you have perhaps forgotten to take into account and that's the driver driving too close behind you, getting very frustrated on a country road and carrying a double load of timber. We have many, many of these as the plantations are systematically being cleared and they do not do patience. They seem to think that travelling on your tail and revving their engine is somehow going to make you magically disappear - and I don't drive slowly! I do drive sensibly with consideration for others on country roads though - narrow roads, loaded tractor and trailers, wide loads of animal foods, loose animals and even holiday-makers enjoying a few short days of wonderful scenery!
I am certainly aware of the possible consequences of being hit whilst carrying 2 (or even up to five) x 5 litres of petrol, even over a short 6 mile journey. I do admire your confidence though.

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Personally I would be more worried about the truck and not that I was carrying a can or two of fuel, again if the risk is that high of a collision then a can of petrol is hardly likely to add significantly to the risk unless its insecure and cracks you on the back of the head when the truck hits you..

Dr Strangeglove said:

It used to pee me off sometimes when some jobsworth would have you jumping through hoops when there was very little risk - I would like to see their risk assessment for crossing a road as I am sure it would include hi Viz vests, 10 mph speed limits, Marshalls, radios and first aid kits!

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Lots of risk management techniques around these days from simple risk registers through to a full bow tie analysis that frankly is less about transparently exposing hazards and properly engaging the workforce as part of the process, than it is about providing assurance to management so they can be certain their arse is covered. But all of them rely on the As Low As Reasonably Practical (ALARP) principle and other than Hi Viz vests for those professionally involved in road crossing - Lollipop people? - none of those would be considered reasonable, so I very much doubt any jobsworth who understood their job would suggest them.

The problems start by managers becoming so risk averse that they end up putting in place systems so over the top that people don't use them, then they can claim if something goes wrong that it only happened because the "rules" were not followed.
I always say when we talk about risk that Engineering is basically about managing risk, the only way of having a no risk system is to switch everything off and keep everyone away from the building/site.

Si Click said:

Lots of risk management techniques around these days from simple risk registers through to a full bow tie analysis that frankly is less about transparently exposing hazards and properly engaging the workforce as part of the process, than it is about providing assurance to management so they can be certain their arse is covered. But all of them rely on the As Low As Reasonably Practical (ALARP) principle and other than Hi Viz vests for those professionally involved in road crossing - Lollipop people? - none of those would be considered reasonable, so I very much doubt any jobsworth who understood their job would suggest them.

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The problem is that some want to cover their arse and don't understand the task at hand.i had one site where we couldn't do some items that were reasonable but then when time was tight to get the project finished (and they would have been liable for the cost of access equipment) they wanted our engineers to jump from one roof to another with something like a 25ft drop between! I told the site management to take a running jump instead.

I do understand and agree with health and safety - as you say, keep the risk as low as possible and if you cannot get it low enough then it's back to the drawing board! I always told the guys that worked on projects I was involved with that I would not expect them to do anything that put them at risk.

BruceB said:

Personally I would be more worried about the truck and not that I was carrying a can or two of fuel, again if the risk is that high of a collision then a can of petrol is hardly likely to add significantly to the risk unless its insecure and cracks you on the back of the head when the truck hits you..

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What do you say I do about the log lorries then?

Dr Strangeglove said:

The problem is that some want to cover their arse and don't understand the task at hand.i had one site where we couldn't do some items that were reasonable but then when time was tight to get the project finished (and they would have been liable for the cost of access equipment) they wanted our engineers to jump from one roof to another with something like a 25ft drop between! I told the site management to take a running jump instead.

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The key to avoiding that kind of hypocrisy is to properly introduce the Duty Holder principle with clear linkage of authority and responsibility. We have three levels from senior site managers to senior group managers to the CEO. Each individual is legally responsible and accountable for safety management within their area of responsibility. If they fail to create and enforce a viable and appropriate safety management system then if someone dies or is injured because of that failure, then they are personally liable and could well be prosecuted. Commercial and operational expediency soon takes on less importance when compared to the threat of jail time.

derwendolly said:

What do you say I do about the log lorries then?

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That's really not relevant to carrying a can of fuel in the car. If they are driving that aggressively I felt in danger from them I would probably approach their employer, or the police.
Or just drive really, really slowly when they come up behind you.

Saw a vid the other day of a fella in the USA filling a holey carrier bag with petrol, then he put that holey/leaking bag into a wicker basket then into his car!
Loads of pics of plastic bags full of petrol.

The pointof doing risk assessments is to be able to identify risks that may not be immediately obvious, reduce the risks as far as is reasonably practical and make those who are exposed to the risks aware of them and the risk control measures. There is nothing about risk assessments that is stupid or unnecessary, the people who complicate the process are those who dont understand it it or are opposed to it for personal reasons, e.g. Dont want to wear a harness when working at height.

Col