Can MOT testing damage transfer Box?

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D

Dunga

Guest
Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
box.

My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying the
handbrake while on the rolling road?


 
Looking at my fuse box cover... it reads...
"A single axle roller rig may be used for speeds up to 5km/h. The centre
differential lock must be disengaged. For roller tests over 5km/h, either
all four wheels must be rotated at the same speed or if only a single axle
roller rig is available, the centre differential must be locked and the
propeller shaft to the stationary axle must be removed."
Was it a 4x4 specialist garage?
Hope this helps.

Wolverine
Big Red 110CSW

"Dunga" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
> station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
> seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
> box.
>
> My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying
> the handbrake while on the rolling road?
>



 
> "A single axle roller rig may be used for speeds up to 5km/h. The centre
> differential lock must be disengaged. For roller tests over 5km/h, either
> all four wheels must be rotated at the same speed or if only a single axle
> roller rig is available, the centre differential must be locked and the
> propeller shaft to the stationary axle must be removed."
> Was it a 4x4 specialist garage?
> Hope this helps.
>


There are similar warnings about suspended towing;

I wonder if someone could explain the damage mechanism? As I see it a
single roller, or suspended tow is not a lot different to the situation
where one pair of wheels on the same axle are spinning in mud and the others
are stationary. (without the centre diff locked). Surely this is not going
to damage things?

Regards
Jeff


 
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:00 +0100
"Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > "A single axle roller rig may be used for speeds up to 5km/h. The
> > centre differential lock must be disengaged. For roller tests over
> > 5km/h, either all four wheels must be rotated at the same speed or
> > if only a single axle roller rig is available, the centre
> > differential must be locked and the propeller shaft to the
> > stationary axle must be removed." Was it a 4x4 specialist garage?
> > Hope this helps.
> >

>
> There are similar warnings about suspended towing;
>
> I wonder if someone could explain the damage mechanism? As I see it
> a single roller, or suspended tow is not a lot different to the
> situation where one pair of wheels on the same axle are spinning in
> mud and the others are stationary. (without the centre diff locked).
> Surely this is not going to damage things?
>


However, the initial question was about applying the handbrake while on
the roller. A very good question indeed when one reads the driver
manual of def's specifying that one should not apply the handbrake
before the car is stationary.

Fred
 
On or around Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:00 +0100, "Jeff" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>> "A single axle roller rig may be used for speeds up to 5km/h. The centre
>> differential lock must be disengaged. For roller tests over 5km/h, either
>> all four wheels must be rotated at the same speed or if only a single axle
>> roller rig is available, the centre differential must be locked and the
>> propeller shaft to the stationary axle must be removed."
>> Was it a 4x4 specialist garage?
>> Hope this helps.
>>

>
>There are similar warnings about suspended towing;
>
>I wonder if someone could explain the damage mechanism? As I see it a
>single roller, or suspended tow is not a lot different to the situation
>where one pair of wheels on the same axle are spinning in mud and the others
>are stationary. (without the centre diff locked). Surely this is not going
>to damage things?


depends. You don't spin the wheels at e.g. 40 mph for extended periods. In
other words, the speed difference across the diff is not very large and is
only maintained for a short period.


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
 
God! I forgot about that one. Did it by accident once whilst pulling into
the drive. The steering wheel still has the impression of my teeth in it!!
:)
Wolverine
Big Red 110CSW

"Fred Labrosse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:20050610134058.78b121dd@localhost...
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:00 +0100
> "Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > "A single axle roller rig may be used for speeds up to 5km/h. The
>> > centre differential lock must be disengaged. For roller tests over
>> > 5km/h, either all four wheels must be rotated at the same speed or
>> > if only a single axle roller rig is available, the centre
>> > differential must be locked and the propeller shaft to the
>> > stationary axle must be removed." Was it a 4x4 specialist garage?
>> > Hope this helps.
>> >

>>
>> There are similar warnings about suspended towing;
>>
>> I wonder if someone could explain the damage mechanism? As I see it
>> a single roller, or suspended tow is not a lot different to the
>> situation where one pair of wheels on the same axle are spinning in
>> mud and the others are stationary. (without the centre diff locked).
>> Surely this is not going to damage things?
>>

>
> However, the initial question was about applying the handbrake while on
> the roller. A very good question indeed when one reads the driver
> manual of def's specifying that one should not apply the handbrake
> before the car is stationary.
>
> Fred



 
In message <[email protected]>
"Dunga" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
> station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
> seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
> box.
>
> My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying the
> handbrake while on the rolling road?
>
>


I'm absolutely not casting any aspertions on the MOT tester's abilities,
but yanking the handbrake on when on the rolling road (as most do
fro the MOT) can buckle the brake back plate. I'm saying no more....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > "A single axle roller rig may be used for speeds up to 5km/h. The centre
> > differential lock must be disengaged. For roller tests over 5km/h, either
> > all four wheels must be rotated at the same speed or if only a single axle
> > roller rig is available, the centre differential must be locked and the
> > propeller shaft to the stationary axle must be removed."
> > Was it a 4x4 specialist garage?
> > Hope this helps.
> >

>
> There are similar warnings about suspended towing;
>
> I wonder if someone could explain the damage mechanism? As I see it a
> single roller, or suspended tow is not a lot different to the situation
> where one pair of wheels on the same axle are spinning in mud and the others
> are stationary. (without the centre diff locked). Surely this is not going
> to damage things?
>
> Regards
> Jeff
>
>


Someone who knows how diffs *really* work once expplained to me why
the two wheels driving the diff is not the same the diff driving the
two wheels. But it was a while ago, when our 7.5 tonner needed a tow
after it broke down and the recovery block took the rear prop off,
which was apparently the correct thing to do.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:23d1d8784d%[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> "Dunga" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
>> station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
>> seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
>> box.
>>
>> My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying
>> the
>> handbrake while on the rolling road?
>>
>>

>
> I'm absolutely not casting any aspertions on the MOT tester's abilities,
> but yanking the handbrake on when on the rolling road (as most do
> fro the MOT) can buckle the brake back plate. I'm saying no more....
>
> Richard
> --
> www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
> Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
> Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
> Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems


Richard

Is this likely to cause the problems that I have 'transfer box oil seal
failure and therefore oil contaminated brake shoes"?

Regards


 
In message <[email protected]>, Dunga
<[email protected]> writes
>Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
>station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
>seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
>box.
>
>My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying the
>handbrake while on the rolling road?
>
>



It is the wrong procedure to test a Landrover handbrake on a rolling
road. Due to possible damage to brake backplate and prop UJs.

The act of having two wheels on the brake testrer. spinning with the
others are stationary will do NO damage at all to the transfer box.

If you were underpower on a Dyno then a two wheel rolling road would
damage the diff in the transfer box.

When under load on a two wheel rolling road the diff is having to pass
all the power via the planet gears. These have no real bearings so to
speak and soon die.

This is why if you get stuck and sit spinning your wheels you will
knacker your axle diffs over time.

--
Marc Draper
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Dunga" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:23d1d8784d%[email protected]...
> > In message <[email protected]>
> > "Dunga" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
> >> station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
> >> seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
> >> box.
> >>
> >> My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying
> >> the
> >> handbrake while on the rolling road?
> >>
> >>

> >
> > I'm absolutely not casting any aspertions on the MOT tester's abilities,
> > but yanking the handbrake on when on the rolling road (as most do
> > fro the MOT) can buckle the brake back plate. I'm saying no more....
> >
> > Richard
> > --
> > www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
> > Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
> > Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
> > Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems

>
> Richard
>
> Is this likely to cause the problems that I have 'transfer box oil seal
> failure and therefore oil contaminated brake shoes"?
>
> Regards
>
>


Its a possibility, but it would need careful examination to
reach that conclusion - I'm treading very carefully on this
as my wording could be misinterpreted.....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
On 2005-06-10, Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> depends. You don't spin the wheels at e.g. 40 mph for extended periods. In
> other words, the speed difference across the diff is not very large and is
> only maintained for a short period.


I had to have my centre diff replaced because it had been damaged due
to excessive speed difference across it, I can't remember what the
damage is but they're certainly only designed to take a fairly limited
speed differential between the two outputs. Hence the warnings about
towing in most 4x4 vehicles, including my old Audi 90 Quattro.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert
 
I wouldn't think so having driven some distance with the handbrake
inadvertently on only to see the thing smoking away merrily which cannot
have done the brake much good but my transmission is in tact. Of course my
handbrake is not what it was and will need sorting before the MOT I suspect.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


"Dunga" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just fitted new brake shoes to my 1985, 110, it went for retest at MOT
> station and they failed again on the handbrake, now the transfer box oil
> seal is knackered and brake shoes are contaminated with oil from transfer
> box.
>
> My question is, what sort of damage could the MOT station do by applying

the
> handbrake while on the rolling road?
>
>



 
>
> Someone who knows how diffs *really* work once expplained to me why
> the two wheels driving the diff is not the same the diff driving the
> two wheels. But it was a while ago, when our 7.5 tonner needed a tow
> after it broke down and the recovery block took the rear prop off,
> which was apparently the correct thing to do.
>

That's nowt to do with the diff, removing the prop doesn't stop the wheels
driving the diff. The prop is removed to stop the gearbox being damaged (on
commercial vehicle gearboxes, there is very often an oil pump driven from
the input shaft. If you tow the vehicle with the prop connected, the gears
are spinning, but the oil pump isn't, hence oil starvation, and a buggered
gearbox.) The alternative method is to remove a halfshaft, slightly messier,
as oil escapes, but sometimes you cant get to the propshaft, for e.g. on a
tri-axle tractor unit.


 
On or around Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:35:22 +0000 (UTC), "SimonJ" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>>
>> Someone who knows how diffs *really* work once expplained to me why
>> the two wheels driving the diff is not the same the diff driving the
>> two wheels. But it was a while ago, when our 7.5 tonner needed a tow
>> after it broke down and the recovery block took the rear prop off,
>> which was apparently the correct thing to do.
>>

>That's nowt to do with the diff, removing the prop doesn't stop the wheels
>driving the diff. The prop is removed to stop the gearbox being damaged (on
>commercial vehicle gearboxes, there is very often an oil pump driven from
>the input shaft.


same's true of land rovers with LT77, R380 or auto boxes.

>If you tow the vehicle with the prop connected, the gears
>are spinning, but the oil pump isn't, hence oil starvation, and a buggered
>gearbox.) The alternative method is to remove a halfshaft, slightly messier,
>as oil escapes, but sometimes you cant get to the propshaft, for e.g. on a
>tri-axle tractor unit.
>

However, there is a point about the diff, too. having one set of wheels
turning and the other not for extended periods or at high speed is not what
it's intended for; the whole diff is on bloody great roller bearings,
whereas the planet gears, which while going straight ahead do nothing at all
and on normal cornering only turn slowly, are not; they are, typically, as
was said, just on a plain shaft. Spinning the diff (especially if under
power on a rolling road) with one axle stationary is working those much
harder than they should be.

As regards suspended towing, in the case of the LRs with a neutral in the
transfer box, you can put the main box in gear (P on an auto) and the
transfer box in neutral. That stops the main box from turning at all and
the only stuff that turns is the lower half of the transfer box, and since
that's old-fashioned splash-lube, it should be fine. Suspended tow on 2
wheels does run the diff as mentioned above, but it's only driving the T-box
internals and therefore not under load, and I doubt it'd be a problem for
shortish distances - for long distances, I'd pull the prop anyway, to be on
the safe side.


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
In message <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> writes
> Suspended tow on 2
>wheels does run the diff as mentioned above, but it's only driving the T-box
>internals and therefore not under load, and I doubt it'd be a problem for
>shortish distances - for long distances, I'd pull the prop anyway, to be on
>the safe side.
>
>


Yes Austin I would pull the prop because the speeds involved are much
greater than a rolling road.

--
Marc Draper
 
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:58:15 +0100, Larry wrote:

> Why not just disengage 4WD oh forgot you can't do that in modern
> land rovers can you :)


No but you can put the transfer box into neutral so only the diff with
the wheels on the ground and half of the transfer box is turning...

I'm not up enough on how diffs work let alone throwing in a transfer
box to know if that helps at all... I must look in a toy shop as some
point to find some model diffs to play with. B-)

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:58:15 +0100, Larry wrote:
>
>>Why not just disengage 4WD oh forgot you can't do that in modern
>>land rovers can you :)

>
> No but you can put the transfer box into neutral so only the diff with
> the wheels on the ground and half of the transfer box is turning...


Not so! This is the difficulty alluded to in the previous message. It is
not possible with the full-time 4WD used beyond the Series models to
stop any part of the ground-driven part of the transfer box (which
includes the inter-axle differential) from rotating. You can't
disconnect the two wheels which are not on the ground.

Putting the transfer box in neutral only disconnects the transfer box
from the main gearbox.

Hence the previous suggestion that in these circumstances the propshaft
to the axle on the ground needs to be disconnected for a suspended tow
of any significant distance.
 
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