Bronze Bit in 200tdi Sump Oil - maybe crankshaft thrust washer

Bronze Bit in 200tdi Sump Oil - maybe crankshaft thrust washer


I bought this ex 1991 Disco 200tdi engine 2 weeks ago from a guy in nearby village who assured me it was in very good condition.
I was cleaning it up & checking it over prior to fitting in my Land Rover, I noticed that sump pan looked like it had been recently refitted.
The guy said his son had changed the timing belt & tensioner recently but never got round to fitting it in to his own land rover so he was selling it.

It seemed to run fine although I found injector timing was about one tooth out so was beginning to be a little suspicious of any work done and wanted to be sure before fitting in my Land Rover..

I drained 200tdi engine oil and noticed some signs of brass flakes in waste oil in drain pan which caused me a lot of concern.
Investigating this I unbolted sump pan and found some small pieces of brass/bronze debris in sump oil too,
The largest piece I found in sump pan is a chip about the size of a baby tooth, flat on both sides made of what looks like brass or bronze.

This broken piece is approx 7mm long, 3mm thick, flat on both top and bottom faces with semi circular groove which corresponds to approx diameter of 50mm on both sides.
The material appears to be cast bronze/ phosphor bronze 3mm disc and has a flat cut on 2 sides, the shorter machined face at an angle of about 135 degrees to longer face.
It appears that this piece belongs on the middle of the disk with flat edge engaging some kind of key or shaft.

I've had a look through the 200tdi manual but cannot see where this part is broken from, nearest thing looks like thrust washer but it's not identical.

At the moment I don't know exactly what's broken, the engine ran & sounded ok before I shut it down to drain the oil.

I don't want to just start stripping the engine down in the hope of finding the offending damaged bit however will check crank end float.

I have some questions maybe someone who's done this can answer, the manual doesn't cover it other than complete overhaul & rebuild style.

Q1. Can the thrust washer's be removed/replaced in situ?
Q2. Can old one be extracted & new one fitted by removing only centre bearing cap, if so can mb shell be re-used?
Q3. If I have to undo all 5 MB caps should I check for anything else, doing this I'll change mb shells.

I do not want to spend loads of ££ on this engine if it is damaged beyond economic repair or my skills whatever comes first.

Looks like someone has been at bottom end before, maybe they decided to seal up evidence & sell it on, should know when I discover if all broken bits are present & fit together!

I Feel a bit stupid as I believed this Guy was being honest with me and took him at his word, have phoned him for help but he doesn't have any ideas however give him credit he did phone me back.

Thanks for reading, hope you recognise this broken chip or can advise on how best to proceed as I cannot afford a recon engine.

regards

Peter

y7ou can buy decent disco engine for £200 dosent look like the thrust washers from what i can see there less than 2mm x 6mm x 90mm semi circle

could it be abit of a tappet slide?
google ERR 607 Tappet Slide

good thinking thats all it could be

Cant blame me,i only used to make the moulds for the rollers

Was someone just too lazy to remove the debris?

I removed centre MB Cap (Nr3), removed it and both thrust washers appeared visibly intact which is what I thought I could see with MB3 cap in place.
I removed them both for inspection (std type fitted see pic, says std on rear), yes you can remove them easily with only centre MB Cap undone, the other MBs are untouched.

I just used a stiff plastic cable tie, thin end cut off to push them round & they dropped out.
Crank appears ok with just some signs of wear on front inner flange ie crankshaft MB Nr3 front inner flange face.
This is what's confusing me a little because I would have expected MB Nr 3 rear flange face on crank to be the one worn when pressing on clutch.

The end float seems high at 0.45mm with existing std thrust washers in place although they may be slightly worn.
If not worn it looks like with crank end float is 0.30-0.40mm outside tolerance between 0.05 - 0.15mm I'm looking at oversize washer in region of 0.15mm - 0.20mm each however will check again when I have measured against std new thrust washers.

I don't know if this crank has been re-ground as stamped on back of MB3 cap shell are letters 7B 020 M6A/1, this may mean something?

Problem Nr 1. The broken bits are thicker at approx 0.3mm (std thrust washers approx 0.23mm)and are made of a material with a much more yellow brass colour, pls see photographs.
This means I will need overside thrust washers to fix the end float and

Problem Nr2. I still have to find where the broken brass bits came from, the brassy yellow bits have groove at approx 50mm dia and journal is 85mm dia? The bits would be too thick for thrust washers as we have 0.40mm end float with std washers and each bit is approx 0.70mm thicker than standard. Ordered up oversize washers not I still have to find where bits came from!

Any sane suggestions welcome.

regards

Peter

have you considered asking the previous owner what went?

Still havn't found where Yellow coloured brassy bits came from, not same as any thrust washers I've seen so far which are more copper coloured! The grooves on broken bits indicate shaft/journal of about 50mm, Mains are 85mm, doesn't add up. Thickness about 3mm is too thick to go inbetween crank journal & block rebate.

PO:-
I have spoken with the previous owner a few of times about this however he says he didn't touch bottom end and has no idea what the broken bits came from. Apparently he only checked tappets & fitted new timing belt & tensioner!

ANYONE GOT A GOOD 200TDI for £200:-
If I could find a good 200tdi for £200 I would buy it, probably cheaper than repairing/rebuilding this one when you take into account cost of parts used in investigating source of broken bits.

Not convinced the bits come from thrust washers, size & colour are uite different but cannot find any larger parts so PO may have removed most of broken bits after previous repair hence newish sealant on sump & ladder frame!

CRANK END FLOAT:-
Measured float approx 0.45mm, max tolerance = 0.05 - 0.15mm that means I need between 0.30 to 0.40mm larger than is fitted (std which maybe slightly worn).
0.40mm = 0.01574798 inch. Does this mean a pair at 0.0075 +0.0075 or is the combined pair give +0.0075, thinking in circles now!

OVERSIZE THRUST WASHERS:-
Also can I mix one +0.0075 inch with +0.0100 inch to give 0.0175 or (0.254 +0.1905mm = 0.4445 maybe too tight).
Two 0075s gives 0.1905 +0.1905 = 0.381 seems closer to minimum at diff of 0.069mm.
Manual says max diff 0.008 to keep centred however rear worn face may already have been machined as it's the best of the two so will measure again with new std washers fitted.

Mingdiesel

It is possible that the foreign matter was there from a previous problem, but i'm wracking my noggin trying to work out what it could've been from, tappet roller cage isn't that big and crank shaft thrust washer is bigger.

Just rebuilt a 200Tdi from scratch anorl, maybe me brain might work later....

I've looked in the old oil filter (one that came with it), breather cyclone, vacuum pump & turbo to see if bits could've come from there but as yet no joy. Nothing visible in oil filter, some gunk in cyclone, no signs of anthing in vacuum pump. Will try Crank with +0075inch thrust washers, if that doesn't take up enough hopefully the guy will take it back. Only found two chips so far the rest was much smaller debris in oil pan.

Going to look at Garrett T2.5 manual drawing to see if it could've escaped from there down oil return pipe. Turbo may have been repaired/replaced and missing bits forgotten.

rgds

Peter

I am almost certain it's not from the turbo, I have had several turbos stripped down for rebuilds etc and there is nothing like that, that could fall from down the oil return.

Garrett Turbocharger Thrust washer is correct colour.

Could the broken bits be from Garrett T25 Turbo thrust washer, the bits I found are small enought to have escaped down larger Turbo oil return pipe.
Broken Turbo may since have been replaced and bits may have been disturbed when I flushed the waste oil out.

Garrett T25 Thrust Washer

Forgot to add some pics I found which have a similar groove and material colour.
Question is should I keep an engine which has had turbo failure, that is if I reduce end float within tolerances.

Mingdiesel

them turbos fail alot.20 percent fail pretty quick.

unless the turbo went in the chamber and killed a bore or piston you may as well drive on if it works.

Brass in sump - was it turbo thrust washer?

Refitted & sealed ladder frame & sump pan, filled with fresh oil & water, new oil & fuel filter.
Ran it for 2-3 hours sitting in frame, seems ok when I extended exhaust & air inlet outside garage I could hear a little & bbreathe.
Turbo removed untill I investigate/dismantle &/or rebuild.
Compression when warm, on my guage I get about 12bar or about 175psi per stroke (all glowplugs removed to ease turn over) after turning a few times over stops at 29-31 bar.
Oil pressure is reasonably constant at about 40psi and after initial rough running engine settled down when warmed up.
Had to hook up electric fan after running for a time on fast idle to modulate temperature.

Don't know how comp pressures compare, I kinda expected a little higher, CR at 19:1 should give close to 19bar/atm?

Tappetts are all a little open at 0.20-0.25 but will adjust them later.

interested in your opinion re compression & oil pressure, readings varied each time I took them but no single cylinder stood out which I hope is good.

Plan to run for one - 2 weeks then drop oil & sump pan again & sieve contents for debris.

Sounds a bit noisier at flywheel end but I guess theres less inbetween you and internals there!

mingdiesel

I got my money on tappet slide leg , if you take the head off and there all fine then i bet its been sat in the cam gallery for a while ( someone else put a new one in and couldnt find that bit ) .