Disco 2 Bit Confused - Starting Issue Again

Okay,

2003 Discovery 2 Td5:

Removed starter motor/starter solenoid around 2 years ago following starting problems and replaced solenoid copper contacts and plunger (kit from Ingram Ashdown). Around this time also installed a new Supercharge battery. Started first time every time since - 100% reliable.

Then, just several weeks ago after around 2 years, got the first clicking episode again and this happened a little more regularly into the following week. Then one day the M+S warning light come on the dash and there was a ding-ding sound when trying to start - for a moment I thought it was 3 amigos!. Called RACV out to check the 2+ year old Supercharge battery - he said the starter motor was perfect but battery ideally needed to be charged overnight. Of course she started when he came out, as luck always has it, so I got home, and reluctantly, I pulled starter/starter solenoid out after just the 2 years to check it - surely it would look like new!? Solenoid inside was in fact quite dirty (black carbon dust) and a bit oily - smell of light machine oil, not engine oil!? Contacts also weren't the best - worn down (stepped). So, replaced contacts and plunger once again and cleaned up the inside of the starter solenoid back to pristine condition. Pinion gear on the starter motor itself looked in excellent nick and wiring connections and battery earth all good. Starting no problems - 100%!

Now, 2-3 weeks have passed without incident, then, a few days ago: turn key - whirring sound, like pinion gear comes out but without enough force and doesn't make proper contact with flywheel. Try again - starts no problem. This has happened several times since (not a click - a whirring sound). Okay, solenoid again??? Battery??? Starter motor itself??? Anything else? The whirring sound on starting happens anytime - no correlation with temperature. Has always started by or usually before third attempt.

I have to sort this first, then will get my ac sorted - suspecting clutch/coil, but, that can wait for now - need to get this baby starting first time every time again!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Put a new starter relay(R2) to be ruled out

Sure you've got the contacts the right way round?

Yeah, right way around - I replace one starter solenoid contact at a time so there is no confusion - have done it three times now, all in the last several years! This morning I swapped Relay 1 with Relay 2 to rule out a possible starter relay issue (sierrafery's suggestion) then turned the ignition key (cold morning) - there was the whirring sound as starter motor pinion gear came out but didn't quite contact with flywheel. Tried again, whirring sound again! Tried third time - started! Went for a long drive and stopped/started three times during my travels when going to shops - started first time no bother at all. When it starts there is no issue! Beginning to think it happens when cold but not certain yet. Lost (stolen?) my multimeter recently so hard to check stuff now unfortunately. Battery (Supercharge MF31-931 Gold Plus) is just over 2 years old and past warranty period. RACV had said the battery wasn't perfect and needed a good 48hr (?) charge which I did. Was going to buy a new battery, but put it off. Now hard to see how it couldn't be either the battery and/or the solenoid again after such a short time?

sierrafery said:

Put a new starter relay(R2) to be ruled out

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Swapped R2 and R1 to rule out relay. Two false (whirring) starts then 3rd time lucky. Not certain yet, but suspecting now it typically happens when cold/left overnight - so, maybe battery is not quite right?

Try whacking the starter with a lump of wood. It's a good, tried and tested Brummie remedy. Failing that, a new starter motor.

Col

Plunger not working right. Have you replaced it along with the contacts?

Intestinalworm said:

Battery (Supercharge MF31-931 Gold Plus) is just over 2 years old

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I'd not trust a a car battery which has only 12 months warranty ...also it's strange that the AH of it is not mentioned while that's the main factor not the CCA

Nig43 said:

Plunger not working right. Have you replaced it along with the contacts?

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Changed copper contacts and plunger 3 weeks ago - all new.

Suspecting battery (though no multimeter now to check). Cold mornings now linked to one or two false starts (whirring) from starter. Maybe battery losing a bit of voltage overnight and then recovering during the day with the alternator going.

Around a month ago this problem started out of the blue one cold morning - whirring sound when starting - not quite enough oomph to engage the starter motor pinion gear (?). M and S green warning lights also flashed on dashboard with an accompanying "ding ding ding" sound:

• RACV checked alternator - 100%
• Said battery needed slow 48hour charge - he said it looked like voltage output was dropping a bit under load

So charged the battery and put it back in. All good until a week later when the same starting issue occurred again - whirring sound. This time I pulled out the starter motor solenoid, cleaned it and put in new contacts and plunger - starter solenoid was sooty and contacts were clearly stepped when I checked.

No problems at all until several days ago - starting issue again - cold mornings (car left overnight).

Will go to battery seller and auto electrician today - maybe should have replaced battery originally rather than doing 48hr charge as recommended by RACV.

It has to be the battery (?) .

sierrafery said:

I'd not trust a a car battery which has only 12 months warranty ...also it's strange that the AH of it is not mentioned while that's the main factor not the CCA

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It's 120Ah - put in just over 2 years ago and now out of warranty!

Will check out the Exide Extreme 31-1100MF Heavy Duty Commercial battery today ($215) - 42 month warranty (1100 CCA and 220 RC (MIN)) - this one doesn't mention Ah in the spec.

Okay, went to Comet Battery - auto electrician, battery and starter motor wholesaler/distributor in Sunshine North, Victoria, Australia. Son of the owner checked the current Supercharge battery thoroughly - passed with flying colours! Based on what I told him he said he believed the starter motor was on the way out.(original 17- year-old Denso starter motor - 2003 Disco 2 Td5). So, saved money on battery, but now have to find a starter motor. He said they don't stock the starter for the Td5, only have the starter for the V8 - told me that they would have to get it via a middleman so would be cheaper for me to source myself.

Well, will need to source a starter motor now that won't break the bank.

Had a good look around locally and online for a new starter motor. Decided on a Bearmach brand starter motor from www.brit-car.co.uk for GBP 88.97 (AUD 165.71) - waiting on freight cost quote.

Have you tried the lump of wood remedy? If this gets the starter going it's a sign that the starter is on its last legs.

Col

I have tried the wooden broom handle on the starter solenoid in the past - shifts the contacts/dislodges dust? Based on what I've been told today, and given the starter motor is the factory-fitted original (17 years old), I think it might just have had its time - sadly, nothing lasts forever. I would ideally like to overhaul the starter motor - reckon the brushes might be worn out on the starter motor - seemed like there was quite a bit of carbon dust (and light oil) in the starter solenoid last time I changed the contacts and plunger a couple of months ago. Unfortunately I don't have the time, inclination, or a soldering gun (and skills) to overhaul the starter motor itself - brushes, bearing and whatever else! I remember though as a 13-year-old watching my dad overhaul one of his starter motors - there was no internet (and no home computers or forums) back then! If I get time later on I might strip and refurbish the Denso starter motor as a side-project - getting more hands on as I get older! For now though, I think it's time for me to put a new starter motor in, and then tackle the aircon clutch and coil - it won't be long before it starts to heat up again!

sierrafery said:

I'd not trust a a car battery which has only 12 months warranty ...also it's strange that the AH of it is not mentioned while that's the main factor not the CCA

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I must say sierrafery, you are a great help - your knowledge and experience is much appreciated; forums just don't work without people like you! You have certainly helped me! Your approach is forensically practical!

Okay, always good form to follow-up with the final outcome:

Battery was tested by a kind auto electrician and I was given a print-out of results - passed with flying colours - no charge ($) for the test as he didn't have the right starter motor in stock - said harder to get for the diesel Td5 as opposed to the V8. He was pretty sure the starter motor was "on the way out" (now 17-year-old original LR (Denso) starter motor). With an average of say, 2 starts per day = 17 x 365 x 2 = 12,410 starts! Would have to be 10.000+ starts, not sure if that is poor, average, or good? You never see a MTBF or "MSBF" (mean number of starts before failure) for a starter motor. I have replaced the starter solenoid contacts/plunger three times (all in last 2 - 3 years incidentally), but it's still the original starter motor with the same brushes since purchased new in 2003.

Mornings - once, or sometimes 2-3 times in a row it wouldn't start, until it would suddenly engage and start up (fingers crossed and a bit nerve wracking). There was a whirring sound like the starter motor pinion gear had come out but without enough vigour to engage the flywheel/ring-gear. Last time there was a lot of black dust (carbon?) in the starter solenoid when I cleaned it and replaced the plunger/contacts. Decided to bite the bullet before the situation worsened

So, bought new starter motor and installed it - starts like a rocket first time now - no missing a beat! Weighed starter motor and it was exactly the same as the original Denso - that looked good, but, it was Britpart (came in a nice box!)! Yes, I know! Not too stressed though, it was much cheaper than Genuine, purchased locally, has a warranty (I have a good customer relationship with the seller) and I don't need it to last for as long as the first one (17 years)! Anyway, changing starter motors isn't so "hard" any more:

• Disconnect battery
• Jack + axle stands + chocks on rear wheels + handbrake + Park + Lo-gear on transfer box
• Safety glasses (don't want any stray oil droplets hitting your eyeballs)
• Lying underneath at an angle on back with feet at front left of bumper and right shoulder at back of front right wheel
• Reach up and slide off Lucar connection
• Take off power cable - 13mm ring spanner
• Take off support clamp for transmission cooler lines (I think that's what they are) hanging underneath the starter - 10mm socket
• Reach up and over starter motor towards the left and feel the 15mm nut (it has a spring washer fitted to it) - use a 15mm 3/8" 6-pointed socket with 6" long 3/8" wobble extension and a 3/8" breaker bar to budge it at the start - I then just used the 3/8" ratchet. I put a blob of Blue Tack inside the socket so I wouldn't lose the 15mm nut when I got it out and off the stud
• The other two 13mm bolts holding the starter body to the flywheel housing are easy to get off with the support bracket, if you have one, for the auto cooler pipes
• Two hands to work that starter motor down to ground level - don't want 6.5kg of metal hitting you in the face!
• Took me just on 15 minutes to get it off once I was underneath
• Putting new starter motor on took another 15 minutes - put 15mm top nut with spring washer on first (Blu Tack inside the socket so you don't lose the nut)
• First ever time I took the starter off it was harder - sprayed some Penetrene on the nut and bolts, let soak for 15 minutes and used a 3/8" breaker bar with a small extension to get a bit more leverage - no problems and no damaged knuckles!

When I get time I might pull the old Denso apart and see if I can put new brushes in (heard they are soldered and a bit tricky - have never soldered before). The auto electrician said If I can find brushes and put them in, it will probably still be good for another 17 years!

Will have a look for a tutorial on Denso starter motor overhaul - can anyone point me in the right direction? Not sure re type of brushes and whether any bearings/bushes should also be replaced? Unit on the outside still looks in good nick!

If anything goes wrong with the new Britpart (Made in China) SM I'll be sure to let the online retailer and everyone here know! One reassuring thing was that the SM came with a one page print-out - "The Report of the starter's performance" (yes, that is the exact title!) - numerical and graphical bench-test data for the starter motor. At least I knew when I opened the box it had started at least once in its life - test date was 17/9/2018, so it has sat on a shelf for over a year since being tested (at least it's a starter motor and not a battery)!

This Britpart starter motor works a charm (so far!) - noticeable difference from before: instant, very strong start and hasn't missed a beat!

Intestinalworm said:

When I get time I might pull the old Denso apart and see if I can put new brushes in (heard they are soldered and a bit tricky - have never soldered before). The auto electrician said If I can find brushes and put them in, it will probably still be good for another 17 years!

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So do you not need to send your old units back over there? Over hear there is usually a surcharge on the old unit if you don't send it back.