audi and kaipola ski jump advertisiement - climbing an icy hill

I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
of 80 degrees, even on a regular ground (not icy road). When I dig out
more information about the Audi advertisement, I read more detail
information on how the car actually climbed up the hill.
I would like to find out comments from the readers about driving up an
icy snow hill with very steep slopes. My immediate questions are:
- Could you actually climb up a ski jump by the power of your car, from
a stop, without slipping on an 80 degrees icy/snow slope?. In the Audi
advertisement, they were using a winch in which the car could only goes
up. There was a braking mechanism to prevent the car from slipping
backward.
- If the above answer is no, then how many degrees of slope can a
regular or 4WD car climb a slippery/ice hill slope? What about a
regular, dry, soil or rocky slope?
- Is the wonder of such a climb a result of the high power car (big
engine), the all wheel drive system, or the good quality gripping ice
tires, or all of the above?
- On what icy slope is a car can actually stand still on without
sliding down? I thought that a relatively small slope (with no friction
because of ice) that a car can stand up on icy slope more than say 15
to 20 degrees ( 1V to 3H to 1V to 4H). .... or is the figure even
lower, say 10 degrees ... or less?
- How many degrees slope that Land Rover brags about in their
advertisement? Or a Hummer? I think they are on a regular, dry, rocky
or soil ground, not snow or icy surface.
- How good quality ice or snow tires can reduce the slippage when
standing on a slope? Will car using these tires stand up at say 25 or
30 degrees? I don't think there is any car on any tires that can stand
still at a 45 degrees slope (1H:1V) . Correct me if I am wrong.
- If the Audi car shown in the ad does not have a winch, do you think
it can climb that 80 degrees slope ? What happen it it accelerate
first on flat surface until it achieve a very high speed? If it NOT on
ice/snow slope, could a car (like an Audi AWD) climb an 80 degrees
slope in a dry, rocky, rough surface?
- I assume that contributing factors for climbing are: adequate engine
power, all wheel drive or 4x4, good gripping tires, weight of the car,
and a good driver. Are there any other governing factors?

Would like to hear some discussion. Thank you!

[email protected] wrote:

> I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> of 80 degrees,

37.5 degrees actually.

Graham

[email protected] wrote:
> I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> of 80 degrees, even on a regular ground (not icy road). When I dig out
> more information about the Audi advertisement, I read more detail
> information on how the car actually climbed up the hill.
> I would like to find out comments from the readers about driving up an
> icy snow hill with very steep slopes. My immediate questions are:
> - Could you actually climb up a ski jump by the power of your car, from
> a stop, without slipping on an 80 degrees icy/snow slope?.

Cant be 80 degrees. That's absurd.

A quick Google found an interesting article:
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050308.004

In article <82hzf.739335$xm3.374675@attbi_s21>,
223rem <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > of 80 degrees, even on a regular ground (not icy road). When I dig out
> > more information about the Audi advertisement, I read more detail
> > information on how the car actually climbed up the hill.
> > I would like to find out comments from the readers about driving up an
> > icy snow hill with very steep slopes. My immediate questions are:
> > - Could you actually climb up a ski jump by the power of your car, from
> > a stop, without slipping on an 80 degrees icy/snow slope?.
>
> Cant be 80 degrees. That's absurd.
>
> A quick Google found an interesting article:
> http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050308.004

And the explains the problem:

" is hard to believe that, after quite literally scaling new heights, he
has just parked his Atlas Grey Audi A6 4.2 quattro 47 metres off the
ground at an angle of 37.5 degrees and that is approximately equivalent
to an 80 percent gradient."

80%, not 80 degrees.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
>>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
>>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
>>of 80 degrees,
>
>
> 37.5 degrees actually.

I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
should have been enough.

223rem wrote:
>
> Pooh Bear wrote:
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> >>of 80 degrees,
> >
> >
> > 37.5 degrees actually.
>
> I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> should have been enough.

At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.

In article <[email protected]>,
Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:

> 223rem wrote:
> >
> > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > >
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > >>of 80 degrees,
> > >
> > >
> > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> >
> > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > should have been enough.
>
> At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
> Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.

You really should study physics a little...

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Thanks for the correction. I checked the ad again, and it was 80%
grade.
37.5 degrees is more likely! It is still very steep, though

223rem wrote:
> Pooh Bear wrote:
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> >>of 80 degrees,
> >
> >
> > 37.5 degrees actually.
>
> I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> should have been enough.

In article <[email protected]>,
Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > 223rem wrote:
> > >
> > > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > > >>of 80 degrees,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> > >
> > > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > > should have been enough.
> >
> > At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
> > Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
> > Kind regards,
> > Erik-Jan.
>
> You really should study physics a little...

Not 20 minutes after my last post, I saw the commercial itself!

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

"Alan Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> And the explains the problem:
>
> " is hard to believe that, after quite literally scaling new heights, he
> has just parked his Atlas Grey Audi A6 4.2 quattro 47 metres off the
> ground at an angle of 37.5 degrees and that is approximately equivalent
> to an 80 percent gradient."
>
> 80%, not 80 degrees.
>

In a given distance it rises 80% of that distance.
Tomes

In article <[email protected]>,
"Tomes" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Alan Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > And the explains the problem:
> >
> > " is hard to believe that, after quite literally scaling new heights, he
> > has just parked his Atlas Grey Audi A6 4.2 quattro 47 metres off the
> > ground at an angle of 37.5 degrees and that is approximately equivalent
> > to an 80 percent gradient."
> >
> > 80%, not 80 degrees.
> >
>
> In a given distance it rises 80% of that distance.
> Tomes

Yes.

But the original poster said 80 *degrees*. He had clearly mistaken one
for the other or heard about it from someone who'd been so mistaken.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Tomes wrote:
> "Alan Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>And the explains the problem:
>>
>>" is hard to believe that, after quite literally scaling new heights, he
>>has just parked his Atlas Grey Audi A6 4.2 quattro 47 metres off the
>>ground at an angle of 37.5 degrees and that is approximately equivalent
>>to an 80 percent gradient."
>>
>>80%, not 80 degrees.
>>
>
>
> In a given distance it rises 80% of that distance.
> Tomes

So how did they get 0.8 from 37.5 degrees?
Is that the tangent of the slope angle? It is close numerically, but
it doesnt sound right, as it can exceed 100%. Or is the sinus? That
doesnt match numerically with 0.8.

"223rem" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:uMnzf.715733$_o.133366@attbi_s71...
>
> So how did they get 0.8 from 37.5 degrees?
> Is that the tangent of the slope angle? It is close numerically, but
> it doesnt sound right, as it can exceed 100%. Or is the sinus? That
> doesnt match numerically with 0.8.

Your observation is correct, it's the tangent function. Gradient
is the ratio of vertical elevation -vs- horisontal displacement, and
with slopes greater than 45 degrees the vertical elevation goes up
faster - hence it is possible for gradient to measure past 100% .

For instance, the gradient of a ladder leaning against a wall can be
several hundred %'s, and the gradient of an upright wall itself is as
much as infinite...

Cheers!

- Risto -

Alan Baker wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > 223rem wrote:
> > >
> > > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > > >>of 80 degrees,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> > >
> > > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > > should have been enough.
> >
> > At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
> > Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
> > Kind regards,
> > Erik-Jan.
>
> You really should study physics a little...

Why? We are talking about an angle of 37.5 degrees here which can be
done with most 4x4's with low range T-case. On tarmac you will even
succeed without spinning wheels.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.

The message <[email protected]>
from "Risto Lankinen" <[email protected]> contains these words:

> For instance, the gradient of a ladder leaning against a wall can be
> several hundred %'s, and the gradient of an upright wall itself is as
> much as infinite...

Or possibly even negative if your builder's had one too many for lunch.

--
Skipweasel
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

In article <uMnzf.715733$_o.133366@attbi_s71>, 223rem wrote:
>Tomes wrote:
>> "Alan Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>And the explains the problem:
>>>
>>>" is hard to believe that, after quite literally scaling new heights, he
>>>has just parked his Atlas Grey Audi A6 4.2 quattro 47 metres off the
>>>ground at an angle of 37.5 degrees and that is approximately equivalent
>>>to an 80 percent gradient."
>>>
>>>80%, not 80 degrees.
>>>
>>
>>
>> In a given distance it rises 80% of that distance.
>> Tomes
>
>So how did they get 0.8 from 37.5 degrees?
>Is that the tangent of the slope angle? It is close numerically, but
>it doesnt sound right, as it can exceed 100%. Or is the sinus? That
>doesnt match numerically with 0.8.

Percentage, as written down on the warning traffic signs (e.g.,
http://www.signaco.si/znaki/nevarno/nevar15s.gif and
http://www.signaco.si/znaki/nevarno/nevar16s.gif) is defined as the
vertical distance ascended (or descended) versus the horizontal distance
travelled, 100*b/a in the following diagram:

/|
/ |
c/ |b
/ |
/____|
a

This is the tangens of the angle between sides c and a. The gradient is
also given as 1:X, but this is just the fraction b/a written as 1a/b).

Here's a table of some gradients in degrees and percentages, both rounded
to 0 decimal places:

deg | perc.
===========
90 | infinity
45 | 100
31 | 60
30 | 58
27 | 50
17 | 30
14 | 25
6 | 10

--
/"\ Jan Kalin (male, preferred languages: Slovene, English)
\ / http://charm.zag.si/eng/, email: "name dot surname AT zag dot si"
X ASCII ribbon campaign against HTML in mail and postings.
/ \ I'm a .signature virus. Copy me to help me spread.

Pooh Bear, <[email protected]> was motivated to say
this in rec.autos.driving on Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:41:37 +0000:
>
> 37.5 degrees actually.

38.66 degrees (assuming I did the trig right)...

It's actually a lot of fun doing that!

We regularly used to take our Jeeps out to a local sand pit area before
it closed that is challenging in the summer and run it in the winter.
It is a blast and our 4x4's can climb wicked slopes in snow. Way more
than 37.5 degrees.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

[email protected] wrote:
>
> Thanks for the correction. I checked the ad again, and it was 80%
> grade.
> 37.5 degrees is more likely! It is still very steep, though
>
> 223rem wrote:
> > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > >
> > > [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > >>of 80 degrees,
> > >
> > >
> > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> >
> > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > should have been enough.

In article <uMnzf.715733$_o.133366@attbi_s71>,
223rem <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tomes wrote:
> > "Alan Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> >>And the explains the problem:
> >>
> >>" is hard to believe that, after quite literally scaling new heights, he
> >>has just parked his Atlas Grey Audi A6 4.2 quattro 47 metres off the
> >>ground at an angle of 37.5 degrees and that is approximately equivalent
> >>to an 80 percent gradient."
> >>
> >>80%, not 80 degrees.
> >>
> >
> >
> > In a given distance it rises 80% of that distance.
> > Tomes
>
> So how did they get 0.8 from 37.5 degrees?
> Is that the tangent of the slope angle? It is close numerically, but
> it doesnt sound right, as it can exceed 100%. Or is the sinus? That
> doesnt match numerically with 0.8.

A slope *can* exceed 100%, because yes, it is the tangent of the slope
angle. A 45 degree slope is 100%.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

In article <[email protected]>,
Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > 223rem wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > > > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > > > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > > > >>of 80 degrees,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > > > should have been enough.
> > >
> > > At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
> > > Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Erik-Jan.
> >
> > You really should study physics a little...
>
> Why? We are talking about an angle of 37.5 degrees here which can be
> done with most 4x4's with low range T-case. On tarmac you will even
> succeed without spinning wheels.

Your missing the point. At 37.5 degrees, almost the entire weight of the
vehicle will be on the rear wheels. Take a wheelbase of 8' for example
and assume a 50-50 weight distribution. If the centre of mass is located
at 8/2 * 80% = 3.2 feet, then the entire weight of the vehicle would be
on the rear wheels on a 80% or 37.5 degree slope.

Hence the OP was suggesting that only RWD would be necessary.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."