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A

Austin Shackles

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flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for about
at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.

so I guess I'll leave it a while to harden reasonably, then flat off the
naff bits with wet and dry and put another coat over it, and hope that stays
tidy.

got a synthetic fibre brush, to try. seems quite nice.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for about
> at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.


Does silicone contamination do that ?

Steve
 
Steve Taylor wrote:
> Austin Shackles wrote:
>> flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for
>> about
>> at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.

>
> Does silicone contamination do that ?


No.

You British lot use different names for the types of paint so I can't
name the combinations that cause this - but it stems from the old paint
reacting with the solvent in the new paint.

--
EMB
 
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:04:34 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for about
>at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.
>
>so I guess I'll leave it a while to harden reasonably, then flat off the
>naff bits with wet and dry and put another coat over it, and hope that stays
>tidy.
>
>got a synthetic fibre brush, to try. seems quite nice.


Apply a coat or two of Uniblock primer - it's designed to stop
different kinds of paints reacting.

PS. You can't put 2pack or cellulose on top of Tekaloid coach enamel
without it.

Alex
 
On or around Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:31:17 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Steve Taylor wrote:
>> Austin Shackles wrote:
>>> flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for
>>> about
>>> at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.

>>
>> Does silicone contamination do that ?

>
>No.
>
>You British lot use different names for the types of paint so I can't
>name the combinations that cause this - but it stems from the old paint
>reacting with the solvent in the new paint.


yeah, I reckon it's that. odd that it takes so long, though - it usually
happens faster.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Festina Lente" (Hasten slowly) Suetonius (c.70-c.140) Augustus, 25
 
On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:04:56 +0100, Alex
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:04:34 +0100, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for about
>>at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.
>>
>>so I guess I'll leave it a while to harden reasonably, then flat off the
>>naff bits with wet and dry and put another coat over it, and hope that stays
>>tidy.
>>
>>got a synthetic fibre brush, to try. seems quite nice.

>
>Apply a coat or two of Uniblock primer - it's designed to stop
>different kinds of paints reacting.
>


bit late, now. I'll see if flatting it and a second coat works, if not I'll
have to strip it and do the job properly :)
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for about
>at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.
>
>so I guess I'll leave it a while to harden reasonably, then flat off the
>naff bits with wet and dry and put another coat over it, and hope that stays
>tidy.
>
>got a synthetic fibre brush, to try. seems quite nice.
>


Are you sure it is a paint/solvent reaction? Have you painted over
existing newly applied paint which is still relatively soft underneath?

Solvent reaction normally starts immediately, whereas this sounds like
you've applied the outer paint too thick over newish soft paint which
hasn't had time to dry/cure properly, this can cause wrinkling as the
outer surface has dried but the underneath layer is still drying which
will pull the outer pull the outer layer as it dries.

Any pictures?


Steve.


>--
>Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
>"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and
>therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
>John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII


--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus.
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce
 
On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:21:23 +0100, Stephen Hull <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Are you sure it is a paint/solvent reaction? Have you painted over
>existing newly applied paint which is still relatively soft underneath?


no, the existing paint has been there for a year or so. The chap in the
paint shop reckons that the solvent in the new paint is softening the old
paint, though, so it might be similar to what you say below.

>Solvent reaction normally starts immediately, whereas this sounds like
>you've applied the outer paint too thick over newish soft paint which
>hasn't had time to dry/cure properly, this can cause wrinkling as the
>outer surface has dried but the underneath layer is still drying which
>will pull the outer pull the outer layer as it dries.
>
>Any pictures?


I can take some.

I suspect the thickness might be relevant. The first bit I did, I found the
paint a bit thick to brush out thin enough, and since then I've thinned it a
bit, it might stand thinning a bit more yet.

The paint is Leyland universal gloss paint, which according to the tin is
suitable for wood or metal, indoors or out.

I'll leave it for a week or two to harden some more, then try a second coat
on one bit and see what happens. If the problem's still there, I'll have to
think again; in that case it'll probably be out with the nitromors, strip it
back to metal, etch and start again, but that's a lot of work.

I do in fact have a colour code for it, of some sort - the label says:

S8010-R50B
NCS Edition II

in the event that it doesn't work and I end up doing a full repaint, anyone
know of a supplier of decent coach enamel (suitable for brushing) who can
make up paint based on such a code?

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:21:23 +0100, Stephen Hull <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Are you sure it is a paint/solvent reaction? Have you painted over
>>existing newly applied paint which is still relatively soft underneath?

>
>no, the existing paint has been there for a year or so. The chap in the
>paint shop reckons that the solvent in the new paint is softening the old
>paint, though, so it might be similar to what you say below.


They tend to use mineral naphtha a lot in synthetic paint these days
instead of the old white spirit so it is possible that this solvent has
caused the reaction, normally there would be no solvent reaction
applying a synthetic base over a previous synthetic base.

>>Solvent reaction normally starts immediately, whereas this sounds like
>>you've applied the outer paint too thick over newish soft paint which
>>hasn't had time to dry/cure properly, this can cause wrinkling as the
>>outer surface has dried but the underneath layer is still drying which
>>will pull the outer pull the outer layer as it dries.
>>
>>Any pictures?

>
>I can take some.


Probably don't need to now as your recent diagnosis is more extensive.

>I suspect the thickness might be relevant. The first bit I did, I found the
>paint a bit thick to brush out thin enough, and since then I've thinned it a
>bit, it might stand thinning a bit more yet.


If you thin the paint it will dry quicker, contrary to the belief that
thinning delays drying.

>The paint is Leyland universal gloss paint, which according to the tin is
>suitable for wood or metal, indoors or out.


I'm not aware of Leyland paint qualities but would presume it is a
synthetic derivative, alkyd or polyurethane?

>I'll leave it for a week or two to harden some more, then try a second coat
>on one bit and see what happens. If the problem's still there, I'll have to
>think again; in that case it'll probably be out with the nitromors, strip it
>back to metal, etch and start again, but that's a lot of work.


Let it dry thoroughly then sand it down and leave it to breath and
harden for a few more days, then reapply a thinner coat so the solvent
contained within the paint evaporates before it has a chance to soften
the underneath layer.

>I do in fact have a colour code for it, of some sort - the label says:


>S8010-R50B
>NCS Edition II


No idea, probably their own paint code which I'm not familiar with.
Did you say what colour it is?

>in the event that it doesn't work and I end up doing a full repaint, anyone
>know of a supplier of decent coach enamel (suitable for brushing) who can
>make up paint based on such a code?


The avenue group or breakwells can mix any colour to your own
specification (you only need to give them a paint sample or recognised
paint code) they even supply accelerators or reducers to suit given
temperatures.

Steve.


--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus.
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce
 
On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:27:06 +0100, Stephen Hull <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>If you thin the paint it will dry quicker, contrary to the belief that
>thinning delays drying.


Hmmm. my main point was that it "felt" a bit thick when brushing it. and a
bit faster drying won't hurt, less chance of it raining on it :-(

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
In Touch: Get in touch with yourself by touching yourself.
If somebody is watching, stop touching yourself.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:27:06 +0100, Stephen Hull <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>>S8010-R50B
>>NCS Edition II

>
>No idea, probably their own paint code which I'm not familiar with.
>Did you say what colour it is?


Purple...

>The avenue group or breakwells can mix any colour to your own
>specification (you only need to give them a paint sample or recognised
>paint code) they even supply accelerators or reducers to suit given
>temperatures.


I'll keep it in mind, but I hope to solve it without resorting to a complete
repaint - time will tell; it's not gonna happen before Malvern though - I
hope I'll get as far as the mauve-sort of colour on the roof though. deep
purple, mauve roof (similar shade to grumble but a bit lighter) and probably
mauve on the cappings which should be galv but have been painted. I think
I'll do the windscreen frame dark purple though. bumper and wheels are
currently black, so I reckon I'll leave them black, although "chassis black"
rather than gloss would be better; then I can paint the reas x-member too.
Now who did I see selling "chassis black"?

I don't know what the Leyland is - I'll see if it says on the tin later. I
know it's got one of those "high VOC" warnings on it. It's ****ing down
here and the tin's outside...

it is possible, of course, that the coat underneath is cellulose... although
in that case I'd expect more of a violent reaction.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
 
On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:27:06 +0100, Stephen Hull <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>They tend to use mineral naphtha a lot in synthetic paint these days
>instead of the old white spirit so it is possible that this solvent has
>caused the reaction, normally there would be no solvent reaction
>applying a synthetic base over a previous synthetic base.


OK, got the tin here now:

Contains Cobalt Carboxylate and Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime.

or so it says.

no idea what they are.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
Robert Frost (1874-1963) from Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
 
Well what you really want is a Landie that you nor nobody else gives a
bugger about so far as finish is concerned.

My delight really is in owning just such a beast, considering my last
vehicle was a limo, you have to keep that well polished and the rest of it,
but such a relaxation to have come down into Landie Land where a smooth coat
of paint is well I ain't saying any more :)

I really never was one for the rivet counting nor polishing.

--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes



"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> flamin' paint is reacting. goes on OK, smooths reasonably, dries for

about
> at least 18 hours and then goes odd and wrinky in patches.
>
> so I guess I'll leave it a while to harden reasonably, then flat off the
> naff bits with wet and dry and put another coat over it, and hope that

stays
> tidy.
>
> got a synthetic fibre brush, to try. seems quite nice.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and
> therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
> John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII



 
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:57:29 +0100, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well what you really want is a Landie that you nor nobody else gives a
> bugger about so far as finish is concerned.
>
> My delight really is in owning just such a beast, considering my last
> vehicle was a limo, you have to keep that well polished and the rest of
> it,
> but such a relaxation to have come down into Landie Land where a smooth
> coat
> of paint is well I ain't saying any more :)
>
> I really never was one for the rivet counting nor polishing.


/nods in agreement

Much happier now I don't get stressed about car-parks and sweet wrappers

--
William Tasso

Land Rover - 110 V8
Discovery - V8
 

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:27:06 +0100, Stephen Hull

<[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >They tend to use mineral naphtha a lot in synthetic paint these days
> >instead of the old white spirit so it is possible that this solvent has
> >caused the reaction, normally there would be no solvent reaction
> >applying a synthetic base over a previous synthetic base.

>
> OK, got the tin here now:
>
> Contains Cobalt Carboxylate and Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime.
>
> or so it says.
>
> no idea what they are.
>


Second one sounds like dry cleaning fluid, no wonder the paint falls off.
:)

Martin


 
Oily wrote:
> "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:27:06 +0100, Stephen Hull

> <[email protected]>
>> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>> They tend to use mineral naphtha a lot in synthetic paint these days
>>> instead of the old white spirit so it is possible that this solvent has
>>> caused the reaction, normally there would be no solvent reaction
>>> applying a synthetic base over a previous synthetic base.

>> OK, got the tin here now:
>>
>> Contains Cobalt Carboxylate and Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime.
>>
>> or so it says.
>>
>> no idea what they are.
>>

>
> Second one sounds like dry cleaning fluid, no wonder the paint falls off.
> :)
>
> Martin
>
>

The cobalt carboxylate is an adhesion agent -
http://www.omgi.com/buprod/metal_organics/products/rubber_adhesion_promoters/default.asp

Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime - it's all explained here
http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden/kemamne_Eng/metyletylketoxim_eng.htm

(no, I didn't understand it either)

--
Karen

And thanks to Tam at aus.bicycle for the cool new nick :)

"Sometimes I think I have a Guardian Idiot - a little invisible spirit just
behind my shoulder, looking out for me ... only he's an imbecile" - Jake Stonebender
 
On or around Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:57:29 +0100, "Larry" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Well what you really want is a Landie that you nor nobody else gives a
>bugger about so far as finish is concerned.
>
>My delight really is in owning just such a beast, considering my last
>vehicle was a limo, you have to keep that well polished and the rest of it,
>but such a relaxation to have come down into Landie Land where a smooth coat
>of paint is well I ain't saying any more :)


yeah, well, smooth, or lack of it, is the point. I don't mind if it's not
shiny.

>I really never was one for the rivet counting nor polishing.


me neither. But having decided to paint it, I want it to look as though I
didn't make a complete cockup of it.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
0123456789112345678921234567893123456789412345678951234567896123456789712345
1 weebl: What's this? | in recognition of the fun that is weebl and bob
2 bob: it a SigRuler! | check out the weebl and bob archive:
3 weebl: How Handy! | http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/archives.php
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:27:06 +0100, Stephen Hull <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>They tend to use mineral naphtha a lot in synthetic paint these days
>>instead of the old white spirit so it is possible that this solvent has
>>caused the reaction, normally there would be no solvent reaction
>>applying a synthetic base over a previous synthetic base.

>
>OK, got the tin here now:
>
>Contains Cobalt Carboxylate and Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime.


Ahh, solvents, yuk!


Steve.


--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus.
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>I don't know what the Leyland is - I'll see if it says on the tin
>later. I know it's got one of those "high VOC" warnings on it. It's
>****ing down here and the tin's outside...


A high VOC warning indicates a solvent base.

>it is possible, of course, that the coat underneath is cellulose...
>although in that case I'd expect more of a violent reaction.


Cellulose is immune to reaction (when a conventional synthetic is
painted over it), but it your case I think it is a solvent problem.

Steve.


--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus.
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce
 
In message <[email protected]>
Duracell Bunny <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> Contains Cobalt Carboxylate and Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime.


>>
>> Second one sounds like dry cleaning fluid, no wonder the paint falls
>> off. :)
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>

>The cobalt carboxylate is an adhesion agent -
>http://www.omgi.com/buprod/metal_organics/products/rubber_adhesion_promoters
>/default.asp
>
>Ethyl Methyl Ketoxime - it's all explained here
>http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden/kemamne_Eng/metyletylketoxim_eng.htm
>
>(no, I didn't understand it either)
>
>--
>Karen


Struth, bet that stuff stinks!

Steve.



--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus.
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce
 

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