I`ve just fitted land rover steel wheels on my Discovery 1, where previously it had had land rover standard alloys on. With the alloys having a thick offset(?) around where the nuts bolt onto the hub they use a broader nut, is this sufficient to keep the steel wheels on or should i buy nuts that are used for steel wheels? or can i just drive around using the same nuts as used with the alloys?
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Alloy/Steel Wheels
- Thread starter POSBORNE
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slob
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i think yule find it safer to use the proper nuts fer the job otherwise they don't seat correctly and may result in the wheel overtaking you
i think yule find it safer to use the proper nuts fer the job otherwise they don't seat correctly and may result in the wheel overtaking you
What excellent advice - succinct, and the possible outcome explained nicely!
Beware wheels these days.
There are basically two methods of holding wheels CENTRAL so they spin true to the hub.
Method # 1 is almost (but not quite) universal with STEEL wheels and older vehicles, and uses the tapered inner face of the wheel nut to engage in a raised tapered recess around the stud-holes of the wheel to centralise the wheel and hold the wheel on. This method carries some risk of the wheel nuts (especially on the left side of the car) coming off during driving. This is bad news at 70 mph in lane 3 on a dark wet night in the rush hour. If the nuts are ever, even once over-tightened, the raised recess of the wheel can be crushed down too far and that wwwwheel will never again be able to be properly secured. NEVER over-tighten steel wheel nuts. Use a torque spanner for all the trouble that is.
Method # 1 uses ordinary steel wheel nuts with tapered inside ends.
Method # 2 involves a few steel wheels (some SAAB for instance) and most alloys, where the WHEEL centre is an accurately machined centralised hole, which fits very closely over a corresponding circular flange of the HUB. ALWAYS use copper-grease on this hub/wheel mating flange and keep it clean and rust-free, or be prepared to use a sledge-hammer to get a wheel off this time next year.
Method 2 usually uses wheel nuts which may have NO tapered inner ends (again some SAAB and others are different) because all the nuts do is clamp the wheel to the hub by pressure of the flange of the nut or the washer, bearing around the stud hole. Centralisation happens because the wheel centre fits the boss on the hub. Some of these types of nuts have built-in washers on them, and some actually do have tapered inner ends just in case you need to use a steel wheel.
The best advice is to use the right nuts, and to wet the studs with copper grease, and to use a torque spanner to tighten them up. To do up 5-stud wheels do each alternative nut up in two stages to full torque. So tighten them in the order 1 3 5 2 4 1 3 5 2 4 and you will go round the wheel nuts four times in fact. It does pull the wheel on evenly, and shows thay you know what you are doing.
Sorry to preach to the converted!
CharlesY
Do not use copper grease on wheel nuts, as I once used it on a Ford Escort Rally car and both rear wheels fell off at the same time in the middle of a forest stage (yes a torque wrench was used correctly)!!!!!!! Only use normal grease or oil as a lube on wheel nuts, by all means use copper grease on the hub to stop alloys from sticking/corroding.
slob
Well-Known Member
- Posts
- 22,488
- Location
- Harrogate or London
What excellent advice - succinct, and the possible outcome explained nicely!
Beware wheels these days.
There are basically two methods of holding wheels CENTRAL so they spin true to the hub.
Method # 1 is almost (but not quite) universal with STEEL wheels and older vehicles, and uses the tapered inner face of the wheel nut to engage in a raised tapered recess around the stud-holes of the wheel to centralise the wheel and hold the wheel on. This method carries some risk of the wheel nuts (especially on the left side of the car) coming off during driving. This is bad news at 70 mph in lane 3 on a dark wet night in the rush hour. If the nuts are ever, even once over-tightened, the raised recess of the wheel can be crushed down too far and that wwwwheel will never again be able to be properly secured. NEVER over-tighten steel wheel nuts. Use a torque spanner for all the trouble that is.
Method # 1 uses ordinary steel wheel nuts with tapered inside ends.
Method # 2 involves a few steel wheels (some SAAB for instance) and most alloys, where the WHEEL centre is an accurately machined centralised hole, which fits very closely over a corresponding circular flange of the HUB. ALWAYS use copper-grease on this hub/wheel mating flange and keep it clean and rust-free, or be prepared to use a sledge-hammer to get a wheel off this time next year.
Method 2 usually uses wheel nuts which may have NO tapered inner ends (again some SAAB and others are different) because all the nuts do is clamp the wheel to the hub by pressure of the flange of the nut or the washer, bearing around the stud hole. Centralisation happens because the wheel centre fits the boss on the hub. Some of these types of nuts have built-in washers on them, and some actually do have tapered inner ends just in case you need to use a steel wheel.
The best advice is to use the right nuts, and to wet the studs with copper grease, and to use a torque spanner to tighten them up. To do up 5-stud wheels do each alternative nut up in two stages to full torque. So tighten them in the order 1 3 5 2 4 1 3 5 2 4 and you will go round the wheel nuts four times in fact. It does pull the wheel on evenly, and shows thay you know what you are doing.
Sorry to preach to the converted!
CharlesY
aye i could have waffled on fer days but then the uninformed would get bored and not read all the spurge! resulting ine the wheels overtaking the vehickle.
why oh why do folk feel the need to waffle on fer half a page when one short well thought out sentence would suffice?
am mean sum folk can barely read nevva mind having to read an answer that would give war and peace a run fer its money in the lots of wurds stakes.
come on folks give the rst of them a chance to learn summinn and keep it short and to the point, after all we do have yanks on here aswell as welshmen
anyway to get back to my point its easier if you keep it simple cos folks can understand simple and not everyone can understand not simple. not to mention the bordom factor thay will make folks run away without having gleamed the information that they have bin looking fer
so in conclusion
K.I.S.S.
Stig Said:
Do not use copper grease on wheel nuts, as I once used it on a Ford Escort Rally car and both rear wheels fell off at the same time in the middle of a forest stage (yes a torque wrench was used correctly)!!!!!!! Only use normal grease or oil as a lube on wheel nuts, by all means use copper grease on the hub to stop alloys from sticking/corroding.
OK Stig, please tell us from your experience, WHY do you blame copper-grease for the wheels falling off your car? What is the science behind your statement please?
I'm 64. I was in army transport for 20 years, followed by owning a garage, and running road haulage workshops. EVERY wheel-stud was copper greased, and we did that to STOP wheel-nuts from coming off! In all my career, I have NEVER had a wheel nut come off on me. There is a very simple explanation of why this is so, but I am scared to write it down in case Slob shouts at me!
My advice to all LR owners remains, lightly copper-grease your wheel studs.
CharlesY
Do not use copper grease on wheel nuts, as I once used it on a Ford Escort Rally car and both rear wheels fell off at the same time in the middle of a forest stage (yes a torque wrench was used correctly)!!!!!!! Only use normal grease or oil as a lube on wheel nuts, by all means use copper grease on the hub to stop alloys from sticking/corroding.
OK Stig, please tell us from your experience, WHY do you blame copper-grease for the wheels falling off your car? What is the science behind your statement please?
I'm 64. I was in army transport for 20 years, followed by owning a garage, and running road haulage workshops. EVERY wheel-stud was copper greased, and we did that to STOP wheel-nuts from coming off! In all my career, I have NEVER had a wheel nut come off on me. There is a very simple explanation of why this is so, but I am scared to write it down in case Slob shouts at me!
My advice to all LR owners remains, lightly copper-grease your wheel studs.
CharlesY
slob
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- 22,488
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- Harrogate or London
i've never copper greased or plain old greased any wheel studs and only once had a problem getting them back off. and that wur on a landy that had been sat fer gawd nose how many years.
go on you can explain, i wint shout at yeah
go on you can explain, i wint shout at yeah
Further to the copper slip debate, the Rally car in question was brand new for the '76 season, the wheel studs where lightly coated with copper slip (got given it as part of the sponsorship deal), the wheels where then fitted with new nuts and torqued up using a freshly calibrated snap on torque wrench. the car was leading the event after 2 stages, but 4 miles into the 3rd stage both rear wheels parted company and left the car stranded. Once the car was retrieved from the stage we thought it may have sheared the studs as this was common for Escorts back then but no the studs where ok. We eventually put it down to the heat transfer from the discs that had caused the problem with the copper slip because after reverting back to a light oiling it never happened again, We where not alone with this problem as several other cars from that period also experienced either losing wheels or loose wheel nuts after using copper slip, to the point that the series scrutineer was advising competitors to remove copper slip from there wheel studs if he could see it present.
discomania
Well-Known Member
- Posts
- 6,947
We eventually put it down to the heat transfer from the discs that had caused the problem with the copper slip
Really? Copper slip is designed to withstand (and work) in temperatures of over 1000deg C.
What temperature is the disc at? Say 600deg C and thats too hot for F1!
QUOTE
Do not use copper grease on wheel nuts, as I once used it on a Ford Escort Rally car and both rear wheels fell off at the same time in the middle of a forest stage (yes a torque wrench was used correctly)!!!!!!!
UNQUOTE
Well, there's a truly empiric scientific proof from THIRTY-ONE years ago for why not to use copper grease on LandRover wheel studs! What unmitigated drivel!
We can all be very sure, the rally-car Ford Escort wheels did not come adrift (both at the same time !!) because the studs were copper-greased! If they came off as described, it is almost certain that the steel wheels were not strong enough to withstand the stresses and strains of rallying, and in 1976 I can tell you from personal experience (I was Autocrossing at the time at national level) car wheels were flimsy affairs indeed, and quite prone to such failures. There are specific reasons why they fail, due to the exact manner that wheels are supposed to fit and be secured to the hub around the wheel-studs. This system can go down the pan for two main reasons,
(1) the wheel nuts holding on that wheel have been over-tightened even once in their lives, and / or
(2) the wheels have been subjected to lateral forces and stresses beyond their design capability, such as happens in rallying and / or
(3) the STUDS stretch beyond their elastic limit, meaning they STAY stretched, meaning the nuts loosen ... and this WAS a Ford problem back then.
My advice is this -
1. ALL wheel studs should be lightly greased throughout a car's life, and copper-grease is as good as any grease, and better than some due to its ability to stay put when hot.
2. ALL wheel nuts should be checked occasionally, but MUST be checked soon after fitting (say 50 to 100 miles) and then maybe a couple of weeks after that FOR SURE, so the owner can be confident nothing is going wrong.
Over-tightening steel wheels EVEN ONCE may destroy the built-in space around the stud-hole, between the wheel and the hub, which MUST go into and remain in ELASTIC TENSION if the wheel is to stay put. If you don't understand that yet, I suggest you take my advice meantime, and start studying the principles. It is quite complicated, clever, but prone to abuse.
Please note that the wheels on the LEFT side of a car are much more likely to come loose, than the wheels on the right. This is a function of almost all cars using right-hand threads on all wheel-studs / nuts, both sides.
For many decades, lorries used left-hand threads on left side wheel-studs to reduce this very problem.
Also, be aware in NEW vehicles, that sometimes the STUDS are not fully pulled-through to fully bottomed-out. After driving a while they will settle in, and the nut and wheel involved may then run loose. In smal Ford cars way back in the seventies this was a major problem, but me being a BMC Mini man didn't care a lot about that. The more Ford wheels that fell off, the better for me! We used to enjoy watching Ford wheels coming clean off in Autocrosses complete with the brake drum and the half-shaft!
CharlesY
Do not use copper grease on wheel nuts, as I once used it on a Ford Escort Rally car and both rear wheels fell off at the same time in the middle of a forest stage (yes a torque wrench was used correctly)!!!!!!!
UNQUOTE
Well, there's a truly empiric scientific proof from THIRTY-ONE years ago for why not to use copper grease on LandRover wheel studs! What unmitigated drivel!
We can all be very sure, the rally-car Ford Escort wheels did not come adrift (both at the same time !!) because the studs were copper-greased! If they came off as described, it is almost certain that the steel wheels were not strong enough to withstand the stresses and strains of rallying, and in 1976 I can tell you from personal experience (I was Autocrossing at the time at national level) car wheels were flimsy affairs indeed, and quite prone to such failures. There are specific reasons why they fail, due to the exact manner that wheels are supposed to fit and be secured to the hub around the wheel-studs. This system can go down the pan for two main reasons,
(1) the wheel nuts holding on that wheel have been over-tightened even once in their lives, and / or
(2) the wheels have been subjected to lateral forces and stresses beyond their design capability, such as happens in rallying and / or
(3) the STUDS stretch beyond their elastic limit, meaning they STAY stretched, meaning the nuts loosen ... and this WAS a Ford problem back then.
My advice is this -
1. ALL wheel studs should be lightly greased throughout a car's life, and copper-grease is as good as any grease, and better than some due to its ability to stay put when hot.
2. ALL wheel nuts should be checked occasionally, but MUST be checked soon after fitting (say 50 to 100 miles) and then maybe a couple of weeks after that FOR SURE, so the owner can be confident nothing is going wrong.
Over-tightening steel wheels EVEN ONCE may destroy the built-in space around the stud-hole, between the wheel and the hub, which MUST go into and remain in ELASTIC TENSION if the wheel is to stay put. If you don't understand that yet, I suggest you take my advice meantime, and start studying the principles. It is quite complicated, clever, but prone to abuse.
Please note that the wheels on the LEFT side of a car are much more likely to come loose, than the wheels on the right. This is a function of almost all cars using right-hand threads on all wheel-studs / nuts, both sides.
For many decades, lorries used left-hand threads on left side wheel-studs to reduce this very problem.
Also, be aware in NEW vehicles, that sometimes the STUDS are not fully pulled-through to fully bottomed-out. After driving a while they will settle in, and the nut and wheel involved may then run loose. In smal Ford cars way back in the seventies this was a major problem, but me being a BMC Mini man didn't care a lot about that. The more Ford wheels that fell off, the better for me! We used to enjoy watching Ford wheels coming clean off in Autocrosses complete with the brake drum and the half-shaft!
CharlesY
slob
Well-Known Member
- Posts
- 22,488
- Location
- Harrogate or London
QUOTE
Do not use copper grease on wheel nuts, as I once used it on a Ford Escort Rally car and both rear wheels fell off at the same time in the middle of a forest stage (yes a torque wrench was used correctly)!!!!!!!
UNQUOTE
Well, there's a truly empiric scientific proof from THIRTY-ONE years ago for why not to use copper grease on LandRover wheel studs! What unmitigated drivel!
We can all be very sure, the rally-car Ford Escort wheels did not come adrift (both at the same time !!) because the studs were copper-greased! If they came off as described, it is almost certain that the steel wheels were not strong enough to withstand the stresses and strains of rallying, and in 1976 I can tell you from personal experience (I was Autocrossing at the time at national level) car wheels were flimsy affairs indeed, and quite prone to such failures. There are specific reasons why they fail, due to the exact manner that wheels are supposed to fit and be secured to the hub around the wheel-studs. This system can go down the pan for two main reasons,
(1) the wheel nuts holding on that wheel have been over-tightened even once in their lives, and / or
(2) the wheels have been subjected to lateral forces and stresses beyond their design capability, such as happens in rallying and / or
(3) the STUDS stretch beyond their elastic limit, meaning they STAY stretched, meaning the nuts loosen ... and this WAS a Ford problem back then.
My advice is this -
1. ALL wheel studs should be lightly greased throughout a car's life, and copper-grease is as good as any grease, and better than some due to its ability to stay put when hot.
2. ALL wheel nuts should be checked occasionally, but MUST be checked soon after fitting (say 50 to 100 miles) and then maybe a couple of weeks after that FOR SURE, so the owner can be confident nothing is going wrong.
Over-tightening steel wheels EVEN ONCE may destroy the built-in space around the stud-hole, between the wheel and the hub, which MUST go into and remain in ELASTIC TENSION if the wheel is to stay put. If you don't understand that yet, I suggest you take my advice meantime, and start studying the principles. It is quite complicated, clever, but prone to abuse.
Please note that the wheels on the LEFT side of a car are much more likely to come loose, than the wheels on the right. This is a function of almost all cars using right-hand threads on all wheel-studs / nuts, both sides.
For many decades, lorries used left-hand threads on left side wheel-studs to reduce this very problem.
Also, be aware in NEW vehicles, that sometimes the STUDS are not fully pulled-through to fully bottomed-out. After driving a while they will settle in, and the nut and wheel involved may then run loose. In smal Ford cars way back in the seventies this was a major problem, but me being a BMC Mini man didn't care a lot about that. The more Ford wheels that fell off, the better for me! We used to enjoy watching Ford wheels coming clean off in Autocrosses complete with the brake drum and the half-shaft!
CharlesY
aye i could have waffled on fer days but then the uninformed would get bored and not read all the spurge! resulting ine the wheels overtaking the vehickle.
why oh why do folk feel the need to waffle on fer half a page when one short well thought out sentence would suffice?
am mean sum folk can barely read nevva mind having to read an answer that would give war and peace a run fer its money in the lots of wurds stakes.
come on folks give the rst of them a chance to learn summinn and keep it short and to the point, after all we do have yanks on here aswell as welshmen
anyway to get back to my point its easier if you keep it simple cos folks can understand simple and not everyone can understand not simple. not to mention the bordom factor thay will make folks run away without having gleamed the information that they have bin looking fer
so in conclusion
K.I.S.S.
Charles I have merely been stating my experience with copper slip on wheel studs. The Escort in question was supplied by Boreham as a brand new Grp 4 2ltr BDG Escort to the same spec as the works cars (we had 2 one for forest one for tarmac) the magnesium wheels where supplied by Tech Del (Minilite) with the inserts fitted to use normal wheel nuts instead of the nyloc nuts as per the works wheels. Once the copper slip had been removed from the studs we never had a problem again in all the time that we used the Escorts (they are still rallying in Ireland today).
Fine.
You go for gold Mr Stig.
If you think that evidence is proof of the cause of wheel-falling-off problem, then in your mind you have a solution, and in my opinion, also a big problem.
The rest of us should lightly copper-grease our wheel studs. Don't use too much or centrifuge makes streaks on the wheels as the excess gets flung off.
Tightening DRY and dirty wheelnuts onto dry studs, applies TWO forces to the studs, TENSION (good) and TORQUE ( bad).
It is TENSION in the stud (or body of the bolt) that holds wheels on. The wheel-nut torque setting is only a measure of force that should achieve the proper tension in the studs.
The more TORQUE induced in the stud the greater the risk of (a) the stud snapping by a torque failure either then or later and (b) the stud ever so slightly backing off in use and loosening the nut. Furthermore, the friction of tightening a dry nut onto a dry stud takes increasing amounts of TORQUE to overcome, and this SUBTRACTS from the effective torque applied to the stud lower down, thus reduces the TENSION of the stud to hold the nut onto the wheel, thus the wheel is not clamped on as tight as it should be, thus there must be more risk of it coming loose. Simple as that. The use of more or less ANY lube reduces the rotational friction of nut to stud, and allows proper tension to be achieved.
Cause and effect gentlemen ... cause and effect.
CharlesY
You go for gold Mr Stig.
If you think that evidence is proof of the cause of wheel-falling-off problem, then in your mind you have a solution, and in my opinion, also a big problem.
The rest of us should lightly copper-grease our wheel studs. Don't use too much or centrifuge makes streaks on the wheels as the excess gets flung off.
Tightening DRY and dirty wheelnuts onto dry studs, applies TWO forces to the studs, TENSION (good) and TORQUE ( bad).
It is TENSION in the stud (or body of the bolt) that holds wheels on. The wheel-nut torque setting is only a measure of force that should achieve the proper tension in the studs.
The more TORQUE induced in the stud the greater the risk of (a) the stud snapping by a torque failure either then or later and (b) the stud ever so slightly backing off in use and loosening the nut. Furthermore, the friction of tightening a dry nut onto a dry stud takes increasing amounts of TORQUE to overcome, and this SUBTRACTS from the effective torque applied to the stud lower down, thus reduces the TENSION of the stud to hold the nut onto the wheel, thus the wheel is not clamped on as tight as it should be, thus there must be more risk of it coming loose. Simple as that. The use of more or less ANY lube reduces the rotational friction of nut to stud, and allows proper tension to be achieved.
Cause and effect gentlemen ... cause and effect.
CharlesY
discomania
Well-Known Member
- Posts
- 6,947
Charles I have merely been stating my experience with copper slip on wheel studs. The Escort in question was supplied by Boreham as a brand new Grp 4 2ltr BDG Escort to the same spec as the works cars (we had 2 one for forest one for tarmac) the magnesium wheels where supplied by Tech Del (Minilite) with the inserts fitted to use normal wheel nuts instead of the nyloc nuts as per the works wheels. Once the copper slip had been removed from the studs we never had a problem again in all the time that we used the Escorts (they are still rallying in Ireland today).
That is very interesting, but what is it about copper grease that makes you say it caused the problem?
Other grease or oils are OK?.. but not heat and corrosion resisting Copper grease?
It was more likely a combination of improperly bottomed studs, wrong (incompatible = not the same) angles on the faces of the wheel inserts or nuts (note he said the wheels had inserts for tapered nuts) or the inserts coming loose or setting in deeper into the alloy wheels, and so on.
We may be perfectly sure, copper grease was NOT the cause of the alleged problem.
We may be perfectly sure, copper grease was NOT the cause of the alleged problem.
