Accessing the starter motor on TD5 Disco

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B

bdinsley

Member
Posts
64
Location
Coxhoe in County Durham
Hi. I am having occasional starting problems. Usually turn the key, one second delay, then engine turns and fires. It caused me to buy a new battery. Seemed fine after that, but it's started doing it again. Seems to happen on cold mornings.

I got underneath to check the starter motor/ solenoid, but it's covered by the belly pan. I didn't spend much time underneath because it was bloody cold out, so I checked RAVE to see what I have to do to access the starter motor. Says I have to remove the belly pan and to do so, it's necessary to disconnect the drag link and steering damper.

Is it really necessary to remove the belly pan and other bits, or is there an easier way???....... please:eek:

Cheers,,,, Brian
progress.gif
 
yep the pan needs to come off when i did my clutch i took the starter off from underneath and it is a real pig to get to the top bolt did not take the starter off compleatley so cannot help about if you need to take the draglink off there is no easy way to do this job sorry
 
martinhollings said:
yep the pan needs to come off when i did my clutch i took the starter off from underneath and it is a real pig to get to the top bolt did not take the starter off compleatley so cannot help about if you need to take the draglink off there is no easy way to do this job sorry
Click to expand...

Bugger!! Guess I was expecting to hear that. Thanks anyway.

Cheers,,,, Brian
 
You do not need to take the drag link off,take of the sump guard which is easy,top nut is a sod and it is a 15mm nut not a 13mm bolt like the bottom ones !
Starter motor solenoid repair kits are ten quid on e-bay and will fix it as i have just done mine, easy to do.
Jim.
 
Thanks for that Frenchy. If the snow keeps off tomorrow, I'll climb underneath again. I saw the solenoid repair kit you mention on ebay today. For 10 quid, it's worth ordering. However, it's only done 47K miles from new and it's had an easy life, i.e. it's not been off-roaded, though it's been through some big puddles:D
Funny thing is,,,, it's been really cold today, and it's started first time. It's cold again tonight, so it'll be interesting to see how it starts tomorrow.

Cheers,,,, Brian
 
When I did my starter motor, I undid the fasteners for the belly pan and just pushed it over to the passaenger side and this gave enough room to get at the starter.

Do you get a click noise when the car doesn't start? This usually happens if its the solenoid bushes.

You defo don't have to split the ball joint. This would be necessary maybe if the pan had to come off.

If you lie on your back and reach sort of over the top of the starter you should be able to get a socket and extension bar onto the top nut.
 
Hi Andy

Thanks for that info. I'll do it next weekend if things get worse.

It's been a peculiar problem, seeming to be worse on cold, wet mornings. I don't get the typical solenoid click. When I turn they key, nothing happens at all for about a second or so, then the engine turns and fires. As I said, it seemed to be worse on cold mornings, but this morning it was covered in snow and fired first turn of the key. The worst type of problem I think.

Cheers,,, Brian
 
Hi Brian

If you don't get the solenoid click there may be some other issue here.
Sometimes a bad earth or battery connection could cause issues.
Before taking the starter off, you could check your battery connections are tight and corrosion free and your earth to the starter is ok.

I know that before I took my starter off I pulled the spade conenctor off the starter solenoid and it was very oily. Cleaning this off made it start normally for a while.

Another easy check for bad earths is to take a jump lead and attach one end to the battery neg post, and attach the other end to the engine. If this sorts it you know it's an earthing issue.

Your car is also pretty 'new' to have the solenoid contacts wear out. From what I can recall they usually last 100K before giving trouble.


Cheers

Andy
 
Not so true Andy mine has only done 80k,cars used on stop start journeys are more suceptible as the contacts arc every time you start it(EVENTUALLY LEADING TO HIGH RESISITANCE),mine when removed did not look too bad and a good clean up would have got them away.
The repair kit from e-bay is worth it has mine has ben bang on since.
Jim (Electrical Engineer)
 
Thanks for the input guys. It's been more than a week aince I've had any problems. Last Saturday, just to rule out dirty battery connections, I cleaned the (new) battery terminals, degreased the terminals and connectors and covered them in vaseline. Reconnected the battery cables, and tightened them up. No further problems..... touching wood!!!!! Weather's been mixed, with damp, wet and windy and freezing. Seems OK. Hate these types of problems. Cheers,,,, Brian
 
Starter motor removal is easy once you know two things:

1..the two lower bolts are 13mm - but the top nut is 15mm. you need socket and extension between 190 -200mm in length for the top nut. 3/8 drive socket worked a treat.

2..re-threading the nut back onto the stud is the sod. took me 5 min using fingertips to feel the nut back on before finishing with the socket. Decided that using the socket to locate the nut was a fools errand.

Once I knew about these two facts - motor change in 20 mins - easy. laughed my arse off considering I spent nearly 2 hours cursing the air blue, without success the day before, all because of the top nut!!

It has been suggested that some do not replace the top nut - personally this is folly. 3 bolts come off - 3 bolts go back on.

Hope this helps!!

Mark
 
Thanks for that Mark. The starter motor failed on me and I needed my car to get to an important meeting, so in the end I took the easy/ lazy route and gave it to a garage to fix.

Thanks for this info though. I'll keep it in mind for future.

Cheers,,, Brian
 
Took mine off and fitted new contacts and plunger (will clean-up and file the old plunger and contacts). Unfortunately, looks like I have lost the top 15mm nut. Is this just a bog standard 15mm nut that I can buy at the local hardware store?
 
Got back and found the original 15mm nut (also has an integral "washer") - had fallen onto one of the rails. All done now - second time I have done the starter solenoid.

Interesting, because I didn't have to touch the starter motor until 2016 I think when I first got the dreaded clicking - installed an Ashwood and Ingram set of contacts and plunger and thought that would be it. The starter motor and solenoid weren't touched from when we bought the Disco 2 Td5 new in early 2004 (2003 model) - so lasted 12+ years. The Ashwood and Ingram overhaul has only lasted about 3 years then! Why? Could it be that 3 years ago I also put in a new battery with 1100CCA? Is too much CCA causing premature wear on starter solenoid contacts (arcing/pitting)?
 
Intestinalworm said:
The Ashwood and Ingram overhaul has only lasted about 3 years then! Why? Could it be that 3 years ago I also put in a new battery with 1100CCA? Is too much CCA causing premature wear on starter solenoid contacts (arcing/pitting)?
Click to expand...

Were the A&I contacts badly pitted when you changed them? Arcing and pitting tends to give a different problem. Before you get to the sad click stage the arcing can cause interference with the crank position sensor. In this case the engine will happily turn over, but the ECU will prevent start. I suspect the plunger failed rather than over pitted contacts.
 
bdinsley said:
Thanks for the input guys. It's been more than a week aince I've had any problems. Last Saturday, just to rule out dirty battery connections, I cleaned the (new) battery terminals, degreased the terminals and connectors and covered them in vaseline. Reconnected the battery cables, and tightened them up.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you got away with a simple fix. Congrats.
I don't have an underbelly pan on mine, so cannot speak from experience. But if it were mine I would be seriously be considering my future relationship with it. I would be looking to see if I could modify it with a hacksaw to remove the need to split the drag link and remove the steering damper, or alternatively just remove it entirely. I think it is just there to provide some acoustic deadening, so if you do take it off you might want to drive without it to see if you think it makes a difference.
 
Si Click said:
Were the A&I contacts badly pitted when you changed them? Arcing and pitting tends to give a different problem. Before you get to the sad click stage the arcing can cause interference with the crank position sensor. In this case the engine will happily turn over, but the ECU will prevent start. I suspect the plunger failed rather than over pitted contacts.
Click to expand...

One of the contacts was about 30% of original thickness at the contact edge and rough to the touch; the other was around 50% and similarly rough. The plunger copper ring was rough and around 60% of the thickness of the new one. The inside of the starter solenoid was black and sooty and there was a smell of a light machine oil (I could also feel it) - where is that from? Anyway, all cleaned up and new contacts and plunger installed - all working well now.

The thing I don't understand is that the original starter solenoid wasn't touched from 2004 - 2016 (12 years)! During this 12 year period I had two batteries (Genuine LR - Delphi I believe). After I changed out the starter solenoid in 2016 (I got the clicking when trying to start) with new contacts and plunger I also put in a new battery at the same time. This time the battery (SuperCharge) was 1100 CCA - I think the original Delphi batteries were 860 CCA (?) The starter solenoid has now just been re-done again after 3 years (2016 - 2019). The question is, why has the lifespan of the starter solenoid (plunger and contacts) diminished so dramatically? Could it be CCA?
 
Intestinalworm said:
The question is, why has the lifespan of the starter solenoid (plunger and contacts) diminished so dramatically?
Click to expand...
The current through the contacts it's the same according to the draw no matter how strong is the battery, on the contrary, a stronger battery can make the plunger to close the contacts better which would avoid arching... IMO it's a simple case of quality, factory fitted genuine parts are always the best also i doubt that the repair kits are made at so high quality like the genuine factory fitted ones, they are weaker from the beginning and built by various manufacturers not by Denso... otherwise they would not make much profit on them, exactly like the difference between any genuine LR factory fitted part and other OEM/aftermarkets ... not even the new genuine LR parts built these days are the same like the factory fitted ones.
 
sierrafery said:
The current through the contacts it's the same according to the draw no matter how strong is the battery, on the contrary, a stronger battery can make the plunger to close the contacts better which would avoid arching... IMO it's a simple case of quality, factory fitted genuine parts are always the best also i doubt that the repair kits are made at so high quality like the genuine factory fitted ones, they are weaker from the beginning and built by various manufacturers not by Denso... otherwise they would not make much profit on them, exactly like the difference between any genuine LR factory fitted part and other OEM/aftermarkets ... not even the new genuine LR parts built these days are the same like the factory fitted ones.
Click to expand...

Also let's not forget that resistance is inversely proportional to the cross-sectional area of the conductor. Like @sierrafery said, CCA does not determine the current flowing through the motor as long as the battery can satisfy the current demand. In other words, CCA will only be a factor if the battery cannot keep up with the current draw of the motor but CCA will not deliver more current if the motor does not demand it. However, less material on the contacts, solenoid, etc. is going to push up the circuit resistance, reduce the current flowing through the motor and produce heat.
 
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