200tdi-type electric conversion

Colthebrummie said:

A defender is surely much heavier than a Nissan Leaf,

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Depends on what Defender, and what Trim Spec of Leaf.

My Ninety Hard Top used to be about 1625 Kg on the weighbridge with me in it.
Presumably a fully loaded 110 Td5 Station Wagon would be a good deal heavier.
So, if the figures given in the link below are accurate, many Defenders would be lighter than a Leaf.

https://autotk.com/weight/nissan/leaf/

Turboman said:

Depends on what Defender, and what Trim Spec of Leaf.

My Ninety Hard Top used to be about 1625 Kg on the weighbridge with me in it.
Presumably a fully loaded 110 Td5 Station Wagon would be a good deal heavier.
So, if the figures given in the link below are accurate, many Defenders would be lighter than a Leaf.

https://autotk.com/weight/nissan/leaf/

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True, but if you took the engine out of the ninety and the motor and battery out of the leaf, then weighed them, I reckon the leaf will be a lot lighter. It's the batteries that weigh so much. Nissan make their leafs as light as possible to get the best range.

Col

Colthebrummie said:

True, but if you took the engine out of the ninety and the motor and battery out of the leaf, then weighed them, I reckon the leaf will be a lot lighter. It's the batteries that weigh so much. Nissan make their leafs as light as possible to get the best range.

Col

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All true. But with full electric, you also do away with the gearbox, fuel tank, and any fuel it may contain, so there is a fair bit of weight lost.

Full electric vehicles in existence do work, although the range isn't as good as IC engine vehicle as yet.

So I would think his project is feasible, depending on how much he is willing to spend, and how much work he wants to do.

It will also depend on how he uses his Defender. If what he wants is a few short trips to the shops, maybe a bit of local laning, I don't see any reason it would be a problem.
If he is wanting to tow full weight trailers to the far North of Scotland, on the other hand, it would be a total non starter.

Unless he wants to fill the trailer with batteries, that is!

overdrawn said:

I'm looking to the future. I may not believe the eco BS (how many SUV's did the Neanderthals have to drive to end the last Ice Age?), but people in power do, so I think the days of a dirty diesel are limited. It's going to become impossible to drive the thing, probably due to the taxes on fuel or the road tax. So, I'm looking for an electric alternative, and can't afford a new one.

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The more I read about this the more I believe that electric won't be an option in the future, the infrastructure just is not there to charge everyones cars, and never will be. I think hydrogen may well be the future fuel.

I think the main issues are, where does the leccy come from, and is it clean?

Some folk use the motor from a forklift truck.
I wondered if this could be connected to the back of the gearbox at the PTO socket on a 2.25 petrol Series, giving extra York and being used to regen/recharge when going down hill, acting as a brake. This is controlled by expensive electronic controllers, but the motor should be a cheap torque boost and make it a hybrid landy.

Wagon Loon said:

Some folk use the motor from a forklift truck.
I wondered if this could be connected to the back of the gearbox at the PTO socket on a 2.25 petrol Series, giving extra York and being used to regen/recharge when going down hill, acting as a brake. This is controlled by expensive electronic controllers, but the motor should be a cheap torque boost and make it a hybrid landy.

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How big is a forklift truck motor? I ask as everything on forktrucks seems heavy.

Fork truck motors are pretty big generally but they are getting smaller. A motor from a 1975 Lansing Bagnal is about twice as big as one from a similar capacity Jungheinrich from today's offerings. The torque figures are about the same. The problem is they don't revolve at the necessary speed so a gearbox is needed. Voltage can be between 48v and about 72v. An awful lot of power is wasted in eddy currents on old style motors from what I've been told.

Col

frog hopper said:

The more I read about this the more I believe that electric won't be an option in the future, the infrastructure just is not there to charge everyones cars, and never will be. I think hydrogen may well be the future fuel.

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It won't, it is a stopgap measure. But not to hydrogen. It is a stopgap measure to people driving a lot less, or not at all.

lynall said:

I think the main issues are, where does the leccy come from, and is it clean?

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Renewables. It isn't clean, but it is much cleaner than coal, and a bit cleaner than oil and gas.

Colthebrummie said:

True, but if you took the engine out of the ninety and the motor and battery out of the leaf, then weighed them, I reckon the leaf will be a lot lighter. It's the batteries that weigh so much. Nissan make their leafs as light as possible to get the best range.

Col

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It's hard to get accurate numbers, but from what I understand the LR engine/gearbox/fuel/exhaust system weighs about 350kg, and the Leaf system including batteries weighs about 350kg. Happy to receive more accurate information.

A new Leaf weighs 1500kg. Kerb weight of a 110 is about 1800kg. So for round and inaccurate figures the Leaf motor would have to shift about 300kg more in a Defender than it would in a Leaf. Assuming that the car is only used locally and not for towing, that difference is not terminal, probably.

I read somewhere that most of an average car's lifetime emissions are produced during it's manufacture. They quoted over 60 percent.
So buying a brand new greener car which will be scrap in a decade is not a green option.
Recycling sounds good but still takes energy and produces emissions. I'm looking into getting my milk delivered in glass bottles again. They are washed and reused.
That's why I got my auld Landie to restore. But if I could convert it for a reasonable price, or make her a hybrid and more efficient, that would be a worthy challenge. Mostly to take advantage of the regenerative braking and increased torque all making for better efficiency and practicality.

Wagon Loon said:

I read somewhere that most of an average car's lifetime emissions are produced during it's manufacture. They quoted over 60 percent.
So buying a brand new greener car which will be scrap in a decade is not a green option.
Recycling sounds good but still takes energy and produces emissions. I'm looking into getting my milk delivered in glass bottles again. They are washed and reused.
That's why I got my auld Landie to restore. But if I could convert it for a reasonable price, or make her a hybrid and more efficient, that would be a worthy challenge. Mostly to take advantage of the regenerative braking and increased torque all making for better efficiency and practicality.

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The hybrid is an even better idea, although more technically difficult, and only for those who want a real challenge.

overdrawn said:

It's hard to get accurate numbers, but from what I understand the LR engine/gearbox/fuel/exhaust system weighs about 350kg, and the Leaf system including batteries weighs about 350kg. Happy to receive more accurate information.

A new Leaf weighs 1500kg. Kerb weight of a 110 is about 1800kg. So for round and inaccurate figures the Leaf motor would have to shift about 300kg more in a Defender than it would in a Leaf. Assuming that the car is only used locally and not for towing, that difference is not terminal, probably.

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Been thinking about this overnight. I would think it would be possible to remove most of the transfer box workings, and use the transfer box casing to mount the electric motor in, driving the final drive shaft and centre differential via a gear.

There would be several advantages to doing this. The transfer box already has mounts capable of taking most of the torque of the existing engine, and you would lose the weight of two of the existing shafts and gear clusters within it. The weight of the electric motor would be low, and fairly central, in the vehicle. Mechanical power loss in the drivetrain would be minimised.

I think that's how they did their one on Vintage Voltage program. Oh and theirs gets to sixty mph in like 5 sec.
Electric Defender specs

• Motor: 450hp Tesla drive unit with modified gearing and limited-slip diff
• Battery: 90kWh Tesla lithium ion battery pack
• Charger: 22kW
• Acceleration: 0-60mph in 5secs
• Top speed: 120mph
• Range: 150 miles
• Towing capacity: 2.5t
• Weight: Approx 2.3t
• Conversion cost: Approx £75,000

A Landy just shouldn't be that fast

Wagon Loon said:

I think that's how they did their one on Vintage Voltage program. Oh and theirs gets to sixty mph in like 5 sec.
Electric Defender specs

• Motor: 450hp Tesla drive unit with modified gearing and limited-slip diff
• Battery: 90kWh Tesla lithium ion battery pack
• Charger: 22kW
• Acceleration: 0-60mph in 5secs
• Top speed: 120mph
• Range: 150 miles
• Towing capacity: 2.5t
• Weight: Approx 2.3t
• Conversion cost: Approx £75,000

A Landy just shouldn't be that fast

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I remember someone thinking that they had done good by buying a cheap Tesla at auction until they found the battery missing...
The replacement was a crazy price.

My views..
How will a standard gearbox cope with all the torque being applied instantly from standstill?
A transfer box isn't just about torque curve limitations of a traditional engine, but also doing work and taking some of the strain off the main gearbox. Offroading would be a pain fiddling about with just a few percent pedal travel! Imagine bouncing over a rut and your for going to the floor, could be exciting for spectators

kermit_rr said:

My views..
How will a standard gearbox cope with all the torque being applied instantly from standstill?
A transfer box isn't just about torque curve limitations of a traditional engine, but also doing work and taking some of the strain off the main gearbox. Offroading would be a pain fiddling about with just a few percent pedal travel! Imagine bouncing over a rut and your for going to the floor, could be exciting for spectators

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You don't use a gearbox at all. On an electric car designed from scratch, the electric motors drive the wheels direct.
On a defender, you are going to be stuck with the mechanical power loss of the shafts and differentials, so lose the gearbox and transfer box.
It was always difficult to keep your foot on the pedals off road, I used to wedge my foot against the side of the footwell.
And there is no reason an electric "throttle" pedal would be any more sensitive than any other. Most cars have used fly by wire accelerators for decades.

Especially if your foot gets knocked down on the the pedal, may do wheelies lol

Wagon Loon said:

Especially if your foot gets knocked down on the the pedal, may do wheelies lol

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Well known problem with Land Rovers, due to the massive power! Not!