200TDi starting problem - not battery or starter.

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biggun1

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21
Hi!

I've got a 200tdi fitted in a 1960 Series II and it has a strange starting problem.
The engine has been in the Landrover since 2003, ocasionally when cold it is slow to turn over (The starter motor turns it over but slower than normal as though it has a slightly flat battery). I have always put it down to not being used every day and the battery voltage dropping a bit.
It's recently got worse to the point where I had to bump start it (Roll it off in second - not connect jump leads). Every time for the rest of that day it started fine so I figured the battery was duff.
Halfrauds tested the battery for me and it passed OK, so I decieded to buy a new battery for starting and use that one on my split charge circuit.
All was good for two mornings then on the third it turned over really slowly, just like it has a flat battery. So I bumped it off and drover to work - for the rest of the day it was fine.
Next morning same thing. So I ordered a Valeo starter motor from a local factors and whilst I was there I replaced all of the the battery terminals and leads (Positive and earth).
I fitted the starter, made up the new leads, fitted new terminals and all was good! It started for a few days OK until yesterday morning.
Exactly the same again. Slow cranking like a flat battery.
So, hooked up jump leads from a known good battery (started my dads P38 Diesel OK) and it still cranks slowly.
Connected jump leads from the battery positive directly to the starter (Heavy leads - not cheap and nasty) Exactly the same - slow turning over.
Added extra earth straps from the engine, gear box and chassis to the battery - exactly the same.
Bumped it off and after that it's fine.
This morning it didn't want to start again but I noticed that if I let it turn over slowly once or twice then let go of the key when I tried again it turned over much faster and started.

It's driving me mad! I know it's electrical or tight engine but what??? It runs great once it's started and uses no oil or water. I don't know where or what to try next.
I have had one chap sugest that it's oil sludge building up at the base of pistons causing increased resistance when it's cold but I've not come across this before on Landrover Tdi's

Any Sugestions?? (Don't say anything to do with the glow plugs or fuel system - neither of these will make the engine turn over slowly and that's why it isn't starting)

Thanks in advance :)

Forgot to say - The alternator is good, battery voltage measures 14.3 volts just above idle, battery drain (Measered at battery terminals) 0.04 amps.
 
Interesting I have very similar problem, have not changed my battery as it test ok.
Have renewed all earths and checked all connections. 200DI Engine has been in two years and starter motor was new then.
I have a battery disconnect fitted and use it when ever I put it back in the garage so no drain on my battery.
Do you have a voltmeter fitted , I have one coupled off fuse box and voltage drops to 8V at that point. I am planning on coupling voltmeter direct to starter motor to see what it drops to on starter motor.
I wonder if high resistance in ignition live circuit is not closing starter motor contacts solid enough when voltage drops.
Like you if it fails to start and a retry a short time later it will start.
 
biggun1 said:
Hi!

I've got a 200tdi fitted in a 1960 Series II and it has a strange starting problem.
The engine has been in the Landrover since 2003, ocasionally when cold it is slow to turn over (The starter motor turns it over but slower than normal as though it has a slightly flat battery). I have always put it down to not being used every day and the battery voltage dropping a bit.
It's recently got worse to the point where I had to bump start it (Roll it off in second - not connect jump leads). Every time for the rest of that day it started fine so I figured the battery was duff.
Halfrauds tested the battery for me and it passed OK, so I decieded to buy a new battery for starting and use that one on my split charge circuit.
All was good for two mornings then on the third it turned over really slowly, just like it has a flat battery. So I bumped it off and drover to work - for the rest of the day it was fine.
Next morning same thing. So I ordered a Valeo starter motor from a local factors and whilst I was there I replaced all of the the battery terminals and leads (Positive and earth).
I fitted the starter, made up the new leads, fitted new terminals and all was good! It started for a few days OK until yesterday morning.
Exactly the same again. Slow cranking like a flat battery.
So, hooked up jump leads from a known good battery (started my dads P38 Diesel OK) and it still cranks slowly.
Connected jump leads from the battery positive directly to the starter (Heavy leads - not cheap and nasty) Exactly the same - slow turning over.
Added extra earth straps from the engine, gear box and chassis to the battery - exactly the same.
Bumped it off and after that it's fine.
This morning it didn't want to start again but I noticed that if I let it turn over slowly once or twice then let go of the key when I tried again it turned over much faster and started.

It's driving me mad! I know it's electrical or tight engine but what??? It runs great once it's started and uses no oil or water. I don't know where or what to try next.
I have had one chap sugest that it's oil sludge building up at the base of pistons causing increased resistance when it's cold but I've not come across this before on Landrover Tdi's

Any Sugestions?? (Don't say anything to do with the glow plugs or fuel system - neither of these will make the engine turn over slowly and that's why it isn't starting)

Thanks in advance :)

Forgot to say - The alternator is good, battery voltage measures 14.3 volts just above idle, battery drain (Measered at battery terminals) 0.04 amps.
Click to expand...

so is it intermittent? if so 1 in 5?

i'd try a few things

next time you get in when cold, do a voltage reading of the battery before you turn the ign on.

leaving multi on the bat, then crank it over and see what voltage it drops to.

---

wait until it won't start as normal, check bat voltage is about 12.4+ and using a screwdriver bridge the starter manually. does it crank fast? ign off will turn solenoid off so it won't start.

i know you changed all the wires, but go and stick jump cable on bat neg and the starter casing/engine block.

report back :)
 
Hi Trax / Blackburn!

Thanks for your replies. I hadn't given the exciter circuit a thought, perhaps voltage drop when cranking is causing the solenoid on the starter to bounce and making or braking the circuit.
I have tried starting it with big heavy jump leads from the battery (+&-) to the starter body and starter terminal - it made no odds but I'm going to try the dirty great screw driver to see if it spins it any quicker.
I'll have to report back in the morning though because right now it's starting fine. I'll measure voltages whilst I'm there too.

Blackburn - I'm so pleased to have found some one else with the same problem, perhaps we can start a help group.
 
You managed to get to the starter terminals on a tdi fitted to a series to fit jump leads?
Have to ask why on you are getting any battery drain at al with ign etc offl?
 
So, this morning I go to the Landrover and.....
Battery voltage 14.4 volts. Battery drain with everything switched off (Measured with a Fluke auto ranging Multimeter) 0.04A (guessing it would be a bit lower than that as I had the door open / interior light).
Added an extra earth directly from the starter motor body to the battery and battery positive terminal to starter positive pole ........ And it turned over really slowly just like it had a flat battery with the battery volts dropping to 8.2 volt.
I only let it turn over once or twice and then stopped trying. Left it for a few minutes and went under the bonnet and bridged across the starter motor exciter terminal and the 12v positive terminal on the starter - exactly the same, turning over really slowly. The battery was showing 12.35 volts until it cranked and it dropped to 8 volts. I stopped after a couple of turns but the battery voltage didn't recover above 12.2 volts.
I then connected up the second battery (Split charge system) with jump leads and it spun over like it should and fired up.

Only thing I noticed this time is that once it had started the voltage at the battery terminals was only 14.02 volts (Last time it read 14.37v). I checked the voltage at the back of the alternator and it only shows 14.11 volts there when you rev it even though the amp meter is showing it's putting 15-20 amps into the battery. I took it for a drive (10-15 minutes) and tested it again and it's still only showing 14.04volts at the battery (I pulled the fuse from the split charge circuit so it's not interfering).

I'm now starting to think perhaps the alternator isn't doing it's thing, or it is but not as well as it should and it's not putting enough back into the battery??

The engine in mine is from a Discovery and I can access the starter motor easily - which is the only good thing I can see at the moment!
 
just sounds like a knackered battery and keep an eye on your alt... but it could be fine. i'd keep an eye on it to make sure it's topping your batteries up enough so they aren't being slowly drained.

what is your main battery btw? cca and ah also age?

stick a bat charger on it overnight and see what happens in the morning and how the alt copes.

are you doing lots of short journeys? as the alt won't have time to charge a bat up.

oh and cold weather really shows up duff batteries
 
Last edited:
The battery that was in it when the fault developed was a Bosch Silver S4 (086 equivilent, less than 2 years old), 74Ah. It tested good but I replaced it anyhow with a Halfords 096 680CCA 75AH (Last month).
The symptoms are the same with both when the old battery was in and after fitting the new battery, although for the first couple of days with the new battery it started fine - which made me think it was just a shagged battery.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that even with the battery discharged to less than 12 volts when it started the alternator only put 15-20 amps back in. Should'nt it be charging almost flat out, it's rated at 60 amps after all??

For tomorrows experiment I'm going to connect the second battery to the first with jump leads so I know it's got more than enough battery power an see what happens.
 
Last edited:
biggun1 said:
The battery that was in it when the fault developed was a Bosch Silver S4 (086 equivilent, less than 2 years old), 74Ah. It tested good but I replaced it anyhow with a Halfords 096 680CCA 75AH (Last month).
The symptoms are the same with both when the old battery was in and after fitting the new battery, although for the first couple of days with the new battery it started fine - which made me think it was just a shagged battery.

Thinking about it, I'm surprised that even with the battery discharged to less than 12 volts when it started the alternator only put 15-20 amps back in. Should'nt it be charging almost flat out, it's rated at 60 amps after all??

For tomorrows experiment I'm going to connect the second battery to the first with jump leads so I know it's got more than enough battery power an see what happens.
Click to expand...

not sure if it's technically the min requirements (have a search), but imo way too small i'm afraid

you want 800CCA+ and 100ah+

edit:

running them in parallel will make it work, lot of trucks us that setup. BUT CHARGE THEM FIRST.

if you don't then the lower battery can pull juic from the charged one very fast and you may end up buggering things.

lot of people seem to like http://www.tayna.co.uk/Enduroline-CXV-X-1000-Amp-P9008.html ah is close enough or go down to your agri place and find the biggest tractor bat you can fit. your bat still in the engine bay on the series?

or optima if you can afford em.
 
Last edited:
Did some tests today on mine battery voltage before trying to start 12.78V connected fluke set to record max an minimum when starting dropped to 8.51V running went up to 14.23.
Typical today it started 1st time.
My battery is 60AH with CCA 0f 540 .
Reading the Haynes manual they recommend loading the battery with headlights rear heated screen and heater blower on then check the voltage at start and should not be lower than 9.6V.
Done a web search for recommended CCA and AH for 200tdi but not getting any results.
Web search using original vehicle gets returns of 640CCa &75AH
 
Blackburn said:
Did some tests today on mine battery voltage before trying to start 12.78V connected fluke set to record max an minimum when starting dropped to 8.51V running went up to 14.23.
Typical today it started 1st time.
My battery is 60AH with CCA 0f 540 .
Reading the Haynes manual they recommend loading the battery with headlights rear heated screen and heater blower on then check the voltage at start and should not be lower than 9.6V.
Done a web search for recommended CCA and AH for 200tdi but not getting any results.
Click to expand...

same, way too small a battery imo.
 
Thinking about it more, as I have a split charge relay and second battery and a lamp bar plus some work lights perhaps it would be worth me fitting a larger output alternator than the standard 60 amp anyhow?
 
biggun1 said:
Thinking about it more, as I have a split charge relay and second battery and a lamp bar plus some work lights perhaps it would be worth me fitting a larger output alternator than the standard 60 amp anyhow?
Click to expand...

what's with the split charge? you winching?
 
Bosch recommend an 027 battery for the defender with a 200/300tdi and that puts out 610cca, both of my batteries put out more than that (680 Halfords and 660 Bosch) and it shouldn't need more than 600cca to turn over a 2.5 diesel.
But, Tomorrow morning I'll put the two batteries in Parallel and try it - A theoretical 1340CCA should prove if it's a battery fault or not (or at least, prove that the battery on the vehicle doesn't have enough charge in it to turn it over quickly enough to start the engine).
 
Hi Trax, It's in ready for a winch but not got the winch fitted yet. Handy to have a spare freshly charged battery though :)
 
@ Johnlad - I changed the starter motor because of this fault, I'm wondering if I have a duff replacement :-/
 
nice. i wouldn't have thought you'd need a larger or dual alt tbh unless you start winching a lot. one your winch battery is topped up then it won't pull much juice.

lamp bar and work lights as well as the rest will be fine on 60amps imo.

but if you need it, you can get 100/120A ones now or run twin alts :)

i'm 99% positive it's due to your bat being a too small for cold weather starting. all your stuff will be fairly old and need more power to run, esp when cold :)
 
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