200Tdi Anti-Freeze Leak from Block ? Pointers / advice Please

Hi all,

Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
Cylinder...

Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...

Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).

The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.

With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
lost the trail.

So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
pump, but where?????

The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.

When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!

Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?

Any other nicer possibilities??

I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.

....As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
Paddocks in the morning!

Thanks
Jon

[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Hi all,
>
> Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my
> Clutch Master Cylinder...
>
> Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing
> in place I dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to
> retrieve and...
>
> Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming
> anti-freeze) on the bolt heads just in front of the bell
> housing, i.e. the lowest point before they drop to the
> floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>
> The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place
> is also wet, following the leak further forward and up the
> engine slightly the power steering pump adjustment
> mechanism is also wet.
>
> With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is
> where I lost the trail.
>
> So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power
> steering pump, but where?????
>
> The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact.
> Water level in the radiator expansion tank is low but not
> alarmingly so.
>
> When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp
> patch somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the
> timing case but will need to look closer at the weekend
> when I have natural daylight!
>
> Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If
> so how big a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that
> the timing case and contents have to come off to get to the
> offending gasket?
>
> Any other nicer possibilities??
>
> I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>
> ...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so
> another call to Paddocks in the morning!
>
> Thanks
> Jon
>
>

Symptom of blown head gasket? Check that back pressure is not
forcing coolant out through the expansion cap on the reservoir.
That's my first thought.

(Been there, done that).

Derry

In message <[email protected]>
[email protected] wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
> Cylinder...
>
> Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
> dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...
>
> Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
> on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
> point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>
> The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
> wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
> power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.
>
> With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
> lost the trail.
>
> So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
> pump, but where?????
>

Hoses sounds like a possibility....

> The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
> in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.
>
> When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
> somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
> will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!
>
> Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
> a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
> contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?
>

Well, there are two gaskets (top and bottom) on the thermostat housing,
there's the bypass hose, and the radiator top hose - all worth a good
look before assuming the worst. 200Tdi don't, as a rule, suffer from
the waterway gasket behind the timing case gasket leaking as do 300Tdi's.
It's also worth checkingthe radiatir itself.

> Any other nicer possibilities??
>
> I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>
> ...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
> Paddocks in the morning!
>
> Thanks
> Jon
>

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems

mine is currently in having the same problem dealt with, my leak is from the
gasket behind the rear of the timing case where it mates with the waterway
from the block, which is directly above said power steering pump. my leak
was welling up in the recess of the block just under the thermostat cover
then getting to ground as you describe. the job entails stripping back as if
you are having a timing belt done, then remove fuel pump & all the various
sprockets, followed by the rear timing cover. Worth replacing all the dust &
oil seals at front of engine whilst u are in there, not forgetting a new cam
belt whilst u are at it.

Chris
1990 200Tdi Disco

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all,
>
> Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
> Cylinder...
>
> Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
> dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...
>
> Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
> on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
> point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>
> The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
> wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
> power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.
>
> With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
> lost the trail.
>
> So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
> pump, but where?????
>
> The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
> in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.
>
> When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
> somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
> will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!
>
> Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
> a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
> contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?
>
> Any other nicer possibilities??
>
> I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>
> ...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
> Paddocks in the morning!
>
> Thanks
> Jon
>

I had this exact problem on my V8Efi RRC back in November. Whilst
parked up on a nice dry service area, noticed a leak (other than the oil
leak!). A blue in colour liquid seemed to be coming from the right hand
bank of cylinders. I start to panic and have visions of blown head gaskets,
holes in the block etc. You name it, i thought that was the problem!. I
calmed myself down and started to have a proper look. Guess what it
was......the drivers side windscreen washer nozzle pipe had split just below
the bonnet side of the nozzle. Each time i washed the screen, some fluid
got sprayed into the engine bay (thought the thing looked clean!) and after
a while there must have been enough for it to drip. One new nozzle and
length of pipe and things were back to normal. This also cured my misfire
problem as well, spark plugs dont like getting washed.

So start with the simple thngs......

Dom J

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:52:50 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In message <[email protected]>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
>> Cylinder...
>>
>> Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
>> dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...
>>
>> Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
>> on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
>> point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>>
>> The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
>> wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
>> power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.
>>
>> With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
>> lost the trail.
>>
>> So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
>> pump, but where?????
>>
>
>Hoses sounds like a possibility....
All hoses appeared to be OK after looking again last night (again
under artifical light).
>
>> The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
>> in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.
>>
>> When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
>> somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
>> will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!
>>
>> Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
>> a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
>> contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?
>>
>
>Well, there are two gaskets (top and bottom) on the thermostat housing,
>there's the bypass hose, and the radiator top hose - all worth a good
>look before assuming the worst. 200Tdi don't, as a rule, suffer from
>the waterway gasket behind the timing case gasket leaking as do 300Tdi's.
>It's also worth checkingthe radiatir itself.
>
>> Any other nicer possibilities??
>>
>> I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>>
>> ...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
>> Paddocks in the morning!
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jon
>>
>
>Richard

Richard,
Thanks. I will check out the thermostat housing gaskets at the
weekend.

Jon

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:52:50 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In message <[email protected]>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
>> Cylinder...
>>
>> Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
>> dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...
>>
>> Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
>> on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
>> point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>>
>> The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
>> wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
>> power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.
>>
>> With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
>> lost the trail.
>>
>> So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
>> pump, but where?????
>>
>
>Hoses sounds like a possibility....
>
>> The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
>> in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.
>>
>> When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
>> somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
>> will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!
>>
>> Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
>> a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
>> contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?
>>
>
>Well, there are two gaskets (top and bottom) on the thermostat housing,
>there's the bypass hose, and the radiator top hose - all worth a good
>look before assuming the worst. 200Tdi don't, as a rule, suffer from
>the waterway gasket behind the timing case gasket leaking as do 300Tdi's.
>It's also worth checkingthe radiatir itself.
>
>> Any other nicer possibilities??
>>
>> I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>>
>> ...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
>> Paddocks in the morning!
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jon
>>
>
>Richard

(Sorry this is a long one)

Ok, finally got around to removing air cleaner, intercooler hoses etc
etc so that I could have a good look around the front of the block to
try and find the leak - it didnt take long!

I left the engine to cool and then connected the hose pipe to the
bleeder fitting on the rad and slowly built up the water pressure till
it blew out of the pressure cap on the header tank. After about 30s -
1 minute a few drops of water appeared where the timing case mates to
the block - just above the alternator and behind the water pump
(should be able to put pictures on a website if required).

Now i know where the leak is how easy is it to fix it??? clearly
timing case off, belt and all sprockets etc etc. Im guessing once
these are off its just a case of putting back together again - BUT -
my concern is timing. How easy is it to get right again?

I was thinking that if I setup as per Mr Haynes / Workshop manuals and
also mark everything with white paint / tippex before it comes off it
should go back on as it came off???

Thought I would remove radiator, intercooler etc to make life easier
for myself...

Any "been there done that" advice on repair procedure appreciated!


New additional problem...
This may just be a coincidence but since pressurising the water system
on Saturday, when driving at about 45mph and above (only under load
though) there is quite a violent shaking through the car. I have been
trying to think how the search for the leak and this new problem could
be connected, but I cant!

First thing I checked was propshafts - no adverse play or seizure, no
loose bolts, both counter weights present.
Also checked that no wheel bearings had collapsed / were collapsing.
I also removed the wading plugs to ensure I hadnt inadvertantly got
water into the timing case (Thinking that i could possibly have water
forcing its way between sprokets and belt) - It was bone dry.
When water was flowing I made sure that none got into the intercooler.
Also, there is no steam from the exhaust and oil still appears water
free!

Any thoughts???



On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:15:12 +0000 (UTC),
[email protected] wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
>Cylinder...
>
>Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
>dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...
>
>Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
>on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
>point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>
>The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
>wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
>power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.
>
>With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
>lost the trail.
>
>So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
>pump, but where?????
>
>The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
>in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.
>
>When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
>somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
>will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!
>
>Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
>a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
>contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?
>
>Any other nicer possibilities??
>
>I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>
>...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
>Paddocks in the morning!
>
>Thanks
>Jon

On or around Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:34:41 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>(Sorry this is a long one)
>
>Ok, finally got around to removing air cleaner, intercooler hoses etc
>etc so that I could have a good look around the front of the block to
>try and find the leak - it didnt take long!
>

probably water pump gasket, between the block and the pump. I've got to do
the one on the 300TDi here, when I get a chance - 's getting expensive in
antifreeze topping the bugger up.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)

Hi all,
Hopefully pictures of the trouble sopt here:


http://www.linesurveys.co.uk/LR/29-01-05_1140.jpg
http://www.linesurveys.co.uk/LR/29-01-05_1147.jpg - water mark on
water pump is due to a leaking jubilee clip ob thermostat housing
under mains water pressure.

I am hoping that some kind soul can tell me if the timing case needs
to come off to replace gasket or if i only need to remove the
offending water pump?


Thanks
Jon


On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:34:41 +0000, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:

>(Sorry this is a long one)
>
>Ok, finally got around to removing air cleaner, intercooler hoses etc
>etc so that I could have a good look around the front of the block to
>try and find the leak - it didnt take long!
>
>I left the engine to cool and then connected the hose pipe to the
>bleeder fitting on the rad and slowly built up the water pressure till
>it blew out of the pressure cap on the header tank. After about 30s -
>1 minute a few drops of water appeared where the timing case mates to
>the block - just above the alternator and behind the water pump
>(should be able to put pictures on a website if required).
>
>Now i know where the leak is how easy is it to fix it??? clearly
>timing case off, belt and all sprockets etc etc. Im guessing once
>these are off its just a case of putting back together again - BUT -
>my concern is timing. How easy is it to get right again?
>
>I was thinking that if I setup as per Mr Haynes / Workshop manuals and
>also mark everything with white paint / tippex before it comes off it
>should go back on as it came off???
>
>Thought I would remove radiator, intercooler etc to make life easier
>for myself...
>
>Any "been there done that" advice on repair procedure appreciated!
>
>
>New additional problem...
>This may just be a coincidence but since pressurising the water system
>on Saturday, when driving at about 45mph and above (only under load
>though) there is quite a violent shaking through the car. I have been
>trying to think how the search for the leak and this new problem could
>be connected, but I cant!
>
>First thing I checked was propshafts - no adverse play or seizure, no
>loose bolts, both counter weights present.
>Also checked that no wheel bearings had collapsed / were collapsing.
>I also removed the wading plugs to ensure I hadnt inadvertantly got
>water into the timing case (Thinking that i could possibly have water
>forcing its way between sprokets and belt) - It was bone dry.
>When water was flowing I made sure that none got into the intercooler.
>Also, there is no steam from the exhaust and oil still appears water
>free!
>
>Any thoughts???
>
>
>
>On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:15:12 +0000 (UTC),
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>Ive just come back in from the cold after taking out my Clutch Master
>>Cylinder...
>>
>>Whilst battling with the nut and stud that hold the thing in place I
>>dropped the spanner, crawled underneath to retrieve and...
>>
>>Noticed two large drips of blue looking liquid (presuming anti-freeze)
>>on the bolt heads just in front of the bell housing, i.e. the lowest
>>point before they drop to the floor (incidently no drops on floor).
>>
>>The underside of the sump where the bolts hold it in place is also
>>wet, following the leak further forward and up the engine slightly the
>>power steering pump adjustment mechanism is also wet.
>>
>>With just an inspection lamp for a source of light this is where I
>>lost the trail.
>>
>>So, I think my leak is coming from somehere above the power steering
>>pump, but where?????
>>
>>The thermostat housing and all hoses seem dry and intact. Water level
>>in the radiator expansion tank is low but not alarmingly so.
>>
>>When I moved the air cleaner box I think I could see a damp patch
>>somewhere below the thermostat housing and behind the timing case but
>>will need to look closer at the weekend when I have natural daylight!
>>
>>Is there a gasket that could have failed in this area? If so how big
>>a job is it to re-setup a 200tdi assuming that the timing case and
>>contents have to come off to get to the offending gasket?
>>
>>Any other nicer possibilities??
>>
>>I will update once ive had a look in the daylight.
>>
>>...As for the master cylinder, its proper buggered so another call to
>>Paddocks in the morning!
>>
>>Thanks
>>Jon

On or around Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:02 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>I am hoping that some kind soul can tell me if the timing case needs
>to come off to replace gasket or if i only need to remove the
>offending water pump?

Should just be the pump (fx: crosses fingers)

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!

Unfortunately when I began to strip it down last night it became clear
that the tioming case needs to come off.

I removed the water pump to expose a now broken gasket and more of the
timing cover case. My leak is where the back of the case joins the
block.

I was rather hoping that the water pump would faster straight to the
block...No such luck.

Next question...
Haynes Manual says Crankshaft pulley should be tightened to 270Nm -
How the hell do you measure this? My torque wrench only goes upto
130Nm?!?

Do you need a special tool or just a socket that fits and a 3ft bar on
the end for leverage, lean on end of bar till tight?

What is the general rule of thumb for this?

Thanks
Jon



On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:57:48 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:02 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I am hoping that some kind soul can tell me if the timing case needs
>>to come off to replace gasket or if i only need to remove the
>>offending water pump?
>
>Should just be the pump (fx: crosses fingers)

On or around Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:44:06 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>
>Do you need a special tool or just a socket that fits and a 3ft bar on
>the end for leverage, lean on end of bar till tight?
>
>What is the general rule of thumb for this?

about that IME. big breaker bar and tighten it as tight as you can.

The 300 TDi has just barfed it water pump here. bearing gone in a big way.

I'd need to look again, but I suspect that the bit the water pump fits to is
not part of the timing case but a separate housing. This may not be so on
the 200. Hmmm. just looked at the book, and it is. Looks like you have to
get the cambelt housing off. Bad luck.

Mind, on the 300, sundry other stuff is all attached to the bit that the
water pump is on, and as such, it's nontrivial to remove it.


>
>Thanks
>Jon
>
>
>
>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:57:48 +0000, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On or around Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:02 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
>>enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>I am hoping that some kind soul can tell me if the timing case needs
>>>to come off to replace gasket or if i only need to remove the
>>>offending water pump?
>>
>>Should just be the pump (fx: crosses fingers)

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)

Austin,
This has confirmed what I saw the other night. I will keep all posted
with how it goes.

Jon

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:37:41 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Tue, 01 Feb 2005 07:44:06 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>>Do you need a special tool or just a socket that fits and a 3ft bar on
>>the end for leverage, lean on end of bar till tight?
>>
>>What is the general rule of thumb for this?
>
>about that IME. big breaker bar and tighten it as tight as you can.
>
>The 300 TDi has just barfed it water pump here. bearing gone in a big way.
>
>I'd need to look again, but I suspect that the bit the water pump fits to is
>not part of the timing case but a separate housing. This may not be so on
>the 200. Hmmm. just looked at the book, and it is. Looks like you have to
>get the cambelt housing off. Bad luck.
>
>Mind, on the 300, sundry other stuff is all attached to the bit that the
>water pump is on, and as such, it's nontrivial to remove it.
>
>
>>
>>Thanks
>>Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:57:48 +0000, Austin Shackles
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On or around Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:32:02 +0000, Jon <[email protected]>
>>>enlightened us thusly:
>>>
>>>>I am hoping that some kind soul can tell me if the timing case needs
>>>>to come off to replace gasket or if i only need to remove the
>>>>offending water pump?
>>>
>>>Should just be the pump (fx: crosses fingers)