2007 Defender

On or around Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:21:17 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>> It wouldn't, necessarily. it would depend on how it's done. It might even
>> be better than a live axle - live axles are not the perfect answer to
>> everything - high unsprung weight and poor ground clearance under the diff,
>> for 2 reasons.
>>
>> for really extreme off-road, you might find it hard to get as much
>> articulation, and it's probably a more difficult proposition to modify.
>>
>> It all rather depends on how the suspension is done.
>
>When Toyota made the move from live to independent front suspension on
>the 4WD Hilux their NZ sales dropped to virtually nothing. The
>independent ones were significantly less capable off road and no better
>mannered on road. It took Toyota 9 months or so to reintroduce a live
>axle model and they instantly regained their position as best selling
>vehicle in it's class.

was that because it was independent, or because it was crappily engineered,
though?

>I really hope LR don't make the same mistake, but I think it's highly
>likely that they will, and almost a certainty that having made the
>mistake they won't rectify it.

I don't see why you shouldn't make an independent setup that functions well
off-road - it needs the same sort of characteristics as the current setup,
though, especially the long travel. This tends to mean it needs extra-long
links, or the geometry won't work.

There are off-road machines out there with independent suspension which work
well... pinzgauer, for example... and those sod-off Czech trucks.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:06:58 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:31:04 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>>"Austin Shackles" wrote :
>>
>>> might have been a gutless version of the engine though. The 2.4 comes in
>>> several levels of tune and the proposed transit one if it is indeed that
>>> would be equivalent to the top spec transit, which hire ones seldom are.
>>> as
>>> to overheating the clutch, well, provided they still have low box, that
>>> should solve that problem.
>>>
>>> Mind, I reckon they're in danger of perpetuating the long-standing land
>>> rover disease of fitting too-small engines. They'd do better to use the
>>> 2.7
>>> V6 as per the disco 3.
>>
>>Well what are the outputs of the current engine?
>
>dunno, TDis are 111 bhp and 200 ft lb. But they're universally reckoned to
>be only just enough, and although the TD5 has bigger numbers, it's also
>reckoned not to be so useful off-road. T

I've just had the pleasure (or not) of driving several brand new
Defender TD5's and they were universally bloody awfull. What on earth
posessed them to design the engine with no power below 2500rpm I do
not know, but frankly my IIA gives better pulling power.

The Disco 3's I drove all had the 2.7TDV6, which is a much more
impressive engine, plenty of torque and power (although admititedly
nowhere near the 4.4V8 in the RR Sport) and coupled to that 6-speed
auto it was remarkably nice to drive. Despite the bloody annoying
electronic handbrake.

Alex

On 09/08/2006 15:40, Bob Hobden wrote:
> According to Photos in today's Autocar, changes outside are a bonnet bulge
> to accommodate the new 2.2ltr. 4 cylinder diesel engine 128bhp/228lbft.
> But inside a total redo, gone are the dash and heating controls we all know
> and love to be replaced with a dash and centre consul identical to the new
> Freelander with car like air vents and conventional heating controls in the
> centre.
> Forward facing rear seats replace the side seats too.
>
http://i7.tinypic.com/21ltnyr.jpg

Just found this, if anyone cant get to AutoCar....

--
Mark
90 90 200tdi - Fixed
87 RR V8 EFI - Sorn'd

http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/ - Firefox Rules!
http://fireftp.mozdev.org/ - FTP Plugin for Firefox

On or around Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:23:10 +0100, Alex
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I've just had the pleasure (or not) of driving several brand new
>Defender TD5's and they were universally bloody awfull. What on earth
>posessed them to design the engine with no power below 2500rpm I do
>not know, but frankly my IIA gives better pulling power.

....below 2500 rpm. It's a common complaint about the TD5. however, a IIA
diesel doesn't really like pulling *above* 2500 rpm... If you nail the TD5
it does shift quite impressively, based on having ridden in an early disco
one, unmodified. at low revs it's relatively feeble, but once on song it
shifts fairly impressively for a thing weighing more than 2 tons. That, of
course, is another point in comparing series with defenders - especially a
SWB series is lighter than the defender.

>The Disco 3's I drove all had the 2.7TDV6, which is a much more
>impressive engine, plenty of torque and power (although admititedly
>nowhere near the 4.4V8 in the RR Sport) and coupled to that 6-speed
>auto it was remarkably nice to drive. Despite the bloody annoying
>electronic handbrake.

yeah, lots of electronics... but an electronic handbrake strikes me as
electronics for the sake of it.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to
a great lie than to a small one" Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
from Mein Kampf, Ch 10

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:30:46 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:23:10 +0100, Alex
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I've just had the pleasure (or not) of driving several brand new
>>Defender TD5's and they were universally bloody awfull. What on earth
>>posessed them to design the engine with no power below 2500rpm I do
>>not know, but frankly my IIA gives better pulling power.
>
>...below 2500 rpm. It's a common complaint about the TD5. however, a IIA
>diesel doesn't really like pulling *above* 2500 rpm... If you nail the TD5
>it does shift quite impressively, based on having ridden in an early disco
>one, unmodified. at low revs it's relatively feeble, but once on song it
>shifts fairly impressively for a thing weighing more than 2 tons. That, of
>course, is another point in comparing series with defenders - especially a
>SWB series is lighter than the defender.
>
>>The Disco 3's I drove all had the 2.7TDV6, which is a much more
>>impressive engine, plenty of torque and power (although admititedly
>>nowhere near the 4.4V8 in the RR Sport) and coupled to that 6-speed
>>auto it was remarkably nice to drive. Despite the bloody annoying
>>electronic handbrake.
>
>yeah, lots of electronics... but an electronic handbrake strikes me as
>electronics for the sake of it.

Sheer laziness of fat Americans who can't be bothered with normal
handbrakes.

Alex

"Alex" wrote
>>yeah, lots of electronics... but an electronic handbrake strikes me as
>>electronics for the sake of it.
>
> Sheer laziness of fat Americans who can't be bothered with normal
> handbrakes.
>
Not just Americans, how many people do you sit behind in a queue that use
their handbrake? They all sit there with their foot on the brake blinding
you at night and then roll back if on a slope when they try to go.

--
Regards
Bob H

Austin Shackles wrote:

> was that because it was independent, or because it was crappily engineered,
> though?

It wasn't badly done within the confines of what they had to work with.
The independent ones behaved better on road and were ok off road until
the going got tough. The problem appeared to be a lack of travel on the
front suspension but without a really serious redesign it wasn't going
to be fixable. I guess it comes down to crappy engineering, or at least
having to keep them affordable.
>
> I don't see why you shouldn't make an independent setup that functions well
> off-road - it needs the same sort of characteristics as the current setup,
> though, especially the long travel. This tends to mean it needs extra-long
> links, or the geometry won't work.

Unfortunately that sort of design isn't particularly suited to good
on-road handling.
>
> There are off-road machines out there with independent suspension which work
> well... pinzgauer, for example... and those sod-off Czech trucks.

All built up to a spec rather than down to a price which means they will
never be mainstream affordable vehicles.



--
EMB

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:23:26 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Alex" wrote
>>>yeah, lots of electronics... but an electronic handbrake strikes me as
>>>electronics for the sake of it.
>>
>> Sheer laziness of fat Americans who can't be bothered with normal
>> handbrakes.
>>
>Not just Americans, how many people do you sit behind in a queue that use
>their handbrake? They all sit there with their foot on the brake blinding
>you at night and then roll back if on a slope when they try to go.

With the electronic handbrake, you can't release it unless you put
your foot on the footbrake and press the switch at the same time.
Which makes it rather pointless using the handbrake, you might just as
well keep your foot on the brake in the first place.

If they wanted to fit an easy, convenient, effortless handbrake then
an air-brake would have been far better.

Alex

Alex wrote:

> If they wanted to fit an easy, convenient, effortless handbrake then
> an air-brake would have been far better.

Until you factor in the necessary systems to make one operate. I
fecking well hate air brake system maintenance.

--
EMB

Austin Shackles wrote:

> It wouldn't, necessarily. it would depend on how it's done. It might even
> be better than a live axle - live axles are not the perfect answer to
> everything - high unsprung weight and poor ground clearance under the diff,
> for 2 reasons.
>

Take a hard look at a Tatra 815 truck, which has swing axles (simple
independent suspension) and you realize that the Tatra can keep the
wheels on the ground and provide a smooth ride at speeds that would
confound just about any other big truck with solid axles.

I believe that your (Brit) military Pinzgauers use a similar
suspension.

US military Hummers have an all-independent setup.

I don't have any dog in this fight but suspect that independent
suspension in the new Defender is inevitable and possibly a step in the
right direction, if they can make it halfway reliable.

--PirateJohn--
www.PirateJohn.com

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:46:01 +0100, beamendsltd wrote:

> I can't see windows being open or not making any odds to a Defender,
> as aerodynamic it isn't,

A Disco II isn't that much better... I can't say I notice any difference
in fuel consumption with the AC (well climate control, left on "auto") on
or off and when the sun is out and the external temp above about 22C the
AC is very nice indeed. Bit of a shock sometimes when you open the door
from a nice comfortable enviroment on to a humid oven...

> Plus it's just something else to go wrong ;-)

I can't argue with that! B-)

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:30:46 +0100, Austin Shackles wrote:

> ....below 2500 rpm. It's a common complaint about the TD5.

You can feel the turbo start to work at about 2000 on mine.

> If you nail the TD5 it does shift quite impressively, based on having
> ridden in an early disco one, unmodified. at low revs it's relatively
> feeble, but once on song it shifts fairly impressively for a thing
> weighing more than 2 tons.

It's happy at slow speeds in almost any gear provided you aren't in hurry
but does lack "go" unless you drop gears to bring the revs up to 2000ish.
After that it'll pull pretty much right up to the limiter at 4850(ish),
if you can stand the noise... I rarely take mine above 3500 and generally
that is accelerating up a moderate hill and knowing that the next gear
would drop the revs to <2000 and thus not enough poke to continue the
acceleration...

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"beamendsltd" >>
>
> Ahem! - Defender sales are at a peak (25,000). It's even profitable
> again. The 2 main dealers in this area sell a lot more than a couple
> a month - each! Far from declining, Defender ownership is on the
> up in these parts - big time - and must be nationaly, by definition.
> There are wide variations from area to area certainly - but that's
> down to dealers attitude rather than the product. In Cheshire you
> don't see many - in Derbyshire you keep tripping over them.
>
> Richard
>

Those figures are probably LR marketing bull****. Defender sales nationally
are appalling and this is acknowledged by the trade if not by LR. I travel
extensively all over the country and have seen a huge decline in new
Defenders about which coincides with a huge increase in working [as opposed
to the parallel huge increase in 'leisure'] Eastern or Oriental built
pick-up sales. Most of the LR Defender sales must be from Derbyshire to the
North then, where I travel least [mostly Wales], and they must sell huge
volumes there if their overall sales are at record levels. I cannot believe
that there is a huge surge in demand abroad either. The Defender has never
really caught on as it should have in mainland Europe and certainly was
never particularly popular in 90'' wheelbase form. Most 90's were always
sold to UK farmers who want the towing capacity and to the military.
Military sales have also declined drastically as LR has not developed the
product to meet their needs either.
IMO LR have accidentally lost the plot, or possibly made a management
decision not to develop the product to bring it up to modern needs and
standards. Either way, that is their choice.

Huw

"Kalev Kadak" <[email protected]> wrote

> Hi,
>
> local salesman claimed, the 2007 Defender comes with independent
> suspension. I hope he was lying. Perhaps he tried to trick me to buy one
> of his two SE models, loaded with all imaginable bells and whistles. I use
> 4x4 mainly as a tractor, so it's hard to utilize all those air cons, 6cd
> changers, alloy wheels, body coloured trims, you name it. For me it should
> start, pull and last.
>
> Looks like bureaucracy in Brussels an market prospects in US managed to
> ruin another fine piece of equipment.
>

Car salesmen [for that is what he is] have near zero product knowledge as a
general rule.
LR have only spent the minimum possible to continue production of the
Defender caused by emission regulations killing off the rather lacklustre
TD5 engine. Live axles will continue or I'll eat my hat.
There will be a new engine and a new gearbox and transfer box because the
continued production of the old items is uneconomic now that the low-volume
Defender product is now the sole user of those components. I expect a chain
driven transfer box from possibly ZF. Hopefully it will have synchromesh
between low and high ratio, possibly a motor driven change.

Huw

In message <[email protected]>
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
> "beamendsltd" >>
> >
> > Ahem! - Defender sales are at a peak (25,000). It's even profitable
> > again. The 2 main dealers in this area sell a lot more than a couple
> > a month - each! Far from declining, Defender ownership is on the
> > up in these parts - big time - and must be nationaly, by definition.
> > There are wide variations from area to area certainly - but that's
> > down to dealers attitude rather than the product. In Cheshire you
> > don't see many - in Derbyshire you keep tripping over them.
> >
> > Richard
> >
>
> Those figures are probably LR marketing bull****. Defender sales nationally
> are appalling and this is acknowledged by the trade if not by LR. I travel
> extensively all over the country and have seen a huge decline in new
> Defenders about which coincides with a huge increase in working [as opposed
> to the parallel huge increase in 'leisure'] Eastern or Oriental built
> pick-up sales. Most of the LR Defender sales must be from Derbyshire to the
> North then, where I travel least [mostly Wales], and they must sell huge
> volumes there if their overall sales are at record levels. I cannot believe
> that there is a huge surge in demand abroad either. The Defender has never
> really caught on as it should have in mainland Europe and certainly was
> never particularly popular in 90'' wheelbase form. Most 90's were always
> sold to UK farmers who want the towing capacity and to the military.
> Military sales have also declined drastically as LR has not developed the
> product to meet their needs either.
> IMO LR have accidentally lost the plot, or possibly made a management
> decision not to develop the product to bring it up to modern needs and
> standards. Either way, that is their choice.
>
> Huw
>
>

I suspect you are confusing the overall increase in 4x4 sales, often
to the new(ish) "Life-style" market, with a decline in LR's sales.
LR's percentage share of the market is cerainly dropping, but that's
not the same as unit sales, which are rising. The market is growing
(well, actually it fell slightly last year).

Defenders sell well to EU utility companies and Police etc, particularly
Italy (notably the Mpi Defender contract for the Italian Police), and
even to the French elericity company (a direct result of UK elctricity
companies taking their Defenders over there to help after their big
storms a few years back). Most EU countries have tax/legislation
probelms that restrict Defender sales to private owners - hence the
3-door Dutch 110 Crew cabs etc.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

On or around Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:24:55 +0100, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>Those figures are probably LR marketing bull****. Defender sales nationally
>are appalling and this is acknowledged by the trade if not by LR. I travel
>extensively all over the country and have seen a huge decline in new
>Defenders about which coincides with a huge increase in working [as opposed
>to the parallel huge increase in 'leisure'] Eastern or Oriental built
>pick-up sales.

seems to be a mixture round here - quite a lot of doublecab pickups, but
there are still people showing up in new defenders as well. And quite a lot
of discos, including some new ones, although most of the discos are
10-year-olds...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)

Part of the slow steady death of the original concept.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes

"Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> People Hi,
>
> in addition to the above,
>
> the windscreen flaps will be abandoned.
> The new engine will be mated to a 6 speed gearbox.
>
> Take care
> Pantelis
>
> "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9254be584e%[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> "beamendsltd" >>
>> >
>> > Ahem! - Defender sales are at a peak (25,000). It's even profitable
>> > again. The 2 main dealers in this area sell a lot more than a couple
>> > a month - each! Far from declining, Defender ownership is on the
>> > up in these parts - big time - and must be nationaly, by definition.
>> > There are wide variations from area to area certainly - but that's
>> > down to dealers attitude rather than the product. In Cheshire you
>> > don't see many - in Derbyshire you keep tripping over them.
>> >
>> > Richard
>> >
>>
>> Those figures are probably LR marketing bull****. Defender sales
>> nationally
>> are appalling and this is acknowledged by the trade if not by LR. I
>> travel
>> extensively all over the country and have seen a huge decline in new
>> Defenders about which coincides with a huge increase in working [as
>> opposed
>> to the parallel huge increase in 'leisure'] Eastern or Oriental built
>> pick-up sales. Most of the LR Defender sales must be from Derbyshire to
>> the
>> North then, where I travel least [mostly Wales], and they must sell huge
>> volumes there if their overall sales are at record levels. I cannot
>> believe
>> that there is a huge surge in demand abroad either. The Defender has
>> never
>> really caught on as it should have in mainland Europe and certainly was
>> never particularly popular in 90'' wheelbase form. Most 90's were always
>> sold to UK farmers who want the towing capacity and to the military.
>> Military sales have also declined drastically as LR has not developed the
>> product to meet their needs either.
>> IMO LR have accidentally lost the plot, or possibly made a management
>> decision not to develop the product to bring it up to modern needs and
>> standards. Either way, that is their choice.
>>
>> Huw
>>
>>
>
> I suspect you are confusing the overall increase in 4x4 sales, often
> to the new(ish) "Life-style" market, with a decline in LR's sales.

Nope.

Huw

"wifiman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.autocarmag.com/news_article.asp?na_id=221617
>
> You're welcome.
>
> E.

Bigger pics here www.110tdi.co.uk/2007 (shows passenger side as well)

It sounds like people are knocking together something of a wish list for a
new defender.

1. Long stroke 4-pot engine (like the 300 Tdi but then some)
2. Galvanised chassis, bulkhead and generally anything that has to be steel
3. As this is a utility vehicle no unneccessary bits and bobs
4. Simple construction (making repair and maintenance cheap)
5. Basic architecture suitable for configuration how the end user wishes
(plaything for Chelsea, basic rugged p-up for a working life, etc.)

Ibex with 2.8l Powerstroke engine (the 300Tdi made under licence in Brazil
but increased to 2.8) then?

Cheers
C

In message <[email protected]>
"cnews" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "wifiman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > http://www.autocarmag.com/news_article.asp?na_id=221617
> >
> > You're welcome.
> >
> > E.
>
> Bigger pics here www.110tdi.co.uk/2007 (shows passenger side as well)
>
> It sounds like people are knocking together something of a wish list for a
> new defender.
>
> 1. Long stroke 4-pot engine (like the 300 Tdi but then some)
> 2. Galvanised chassis, bulkhead and generally anything that has to be steel
> 3. As this is a utility vehicle no unneccessary bits and bobs
> 4. Simple construction (making repair and maintenance cheap)
> 5. Basic architecture suitable for configuration how the end user wishes
> (plaything for Chelsea, basic rugged p-up for a working life, etc.)
>
> Ibex with 2.8l Powerstroke engine (the 300Tdi made under licence in Brazil
> but increased to 2.8) then?
>

Definately. Just the job.

> Cheers
> C
>

Forward to LR, and get them to cross-reference the above specification
with.......... the Series I design brief, i.e full-circle with coil
spings!

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive