2004 4.4 V8 petrol 115k - Is my engine dead?

Well i think this may be rock bottom when it comes to my range rover.
My engine today started making a sort of bearing grinding noise when i revved it up, it was only there for a second or two as the revs died down, almost like an heat shield rattling.
however i just went out to start it to take it for a bit of a drive to see if i could get a better idea as to what is going on and as soon as i started it there is a fast knocking noise in line with the engine revs.

i cant investigate any further as its dark and my neighbours wont like it but i may have just reached the end with this car.

i am wondering timing chain guides or worse but any ideas anyone??

if its serious i think the only option is to sell for spares or repairs as i have sunk so much money into this car already

holidaychicken said:

Well i think this may be rock bottom when it comes to my range rover.
My engine today started making a sort of bearing grinding noise when i revved it up, it was only there for a second or two as the revs died down, almost like an heat shield rattling.
however i just went out to start it to take it for a bit of a drive to see if i could get a better idea as to what is going on and as soon as i started it there is a fast knocking noise in line with the engine revs.

i cant investigate any further as its dark and my neighbours wont like it but i may have just reached the end with this car.

i am wondering timing chain guides or worse but any ideas anyone??

if its serious i think the only option is to sell for spares or repairs as i have sunk so much money into this car already

Click to expand...

Hmmm **** Andy, you are certainly having a 'time' with this car....

If it s a rattle or slapping it may be the chain guides....might be a plan to drop the engine sump and see if you can see any broken up bits of the guide...

VANOS systems have been known to rattle when the hydraulic piston seals get old....but most common is the chain guides...

A big job but if methodical and you have time and patience it can be done...





Do loads of research on the BMW forums as the guides, noises and rattles have been well documented....

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/876903

Really sorry to hear it bud, but it may not be terminal.....check the engine sump and engine oil condition first!

Here are some links so you can compare noises:

Timing chain rattle:

BMW e39 540i M62 Timing Chain Tensioner Noise - YouTube

Timing chain replacement:

L322 Range Rover M62 timing chain - YouTube

Vanos rattle:

2001 BMW e39 540i m62tu m62 VANOS rattle - YouTube

I have a hint of the VANOS rattle (a deeper knocking)

I spoke to the Chris at:

CPC Performance Engineering Ltd - Home

...and I asked about pricing etc, but he did say that the common fault was timing chain guides and VANOS noise, although commonly present, is not something to be overduly worried about (depends how loud). I can't remember the pricing for timing chain guides but Chris did quote it and it wasn't free but wasn't crazy. A vanos replacement was 5 hrs @£50 ph and if my grey cells are still okay, timing chain guides were a lot less?!?

I was still spooked by my noise so I took it to an engine re-build center, they said it was okay but again mentioned that the common issue was timing chain guides.

Charlie

Saint.V8 said:

Hmmm **** Andy, you are certainly having a 'time' with this car....

If it s a rattle or slapping it may be the chain guides....might be a plan to drop the engine sump and see if you can see any broken up bits of the guide...

VANOS systems have been known to rattle when the hydraulic piston seals get old....but most common is the chain guides...

A big job but if methodical and you have time and patience it can be done...


Do loads of research on the BMW forums as the guides, noises and rattles have been well documented....

DIY: Timing Chain Guide & Timing Chain Replacement

Really sorry to hear it bud, but it may not be terminal.....check the engine sump and engine oil condition first!

Click to expand...

cheers Ant, i may need some help if i am going to pull through this one, i see you have been having fun as well, i have been following your post but i am no help i am afraid

its more of a rapid knock than a rattle.
i did think alternator bearings, you never know

i have trawled the net tonight and as you say if its the chain guides its possible and would mean doing the vanos while i was in there but fook me i'd rather not, jason is offline as well so just me and the girlfriend

i have found part numbers and prices for the guides and chain but after i look further it may be something more terminal.

i have 3 weeks off at christmas but i am broke, financially and almost mentally....

charliedurrant said:

Here are some links so you can compare noises:

Timing chain rattle:

BMW e39 540i M62 Timing Chain Tensioner Noise - YouTube

Timing chain replacement:

L322 Range Rover M62 timing chain - YouTube

Vanos rattle:

2001 BMW e39 540i m62tu m62 VANOS rattle - YouTube

I have a hint of the VANOS rattle (a deeper knocking)

I spoke to the Chris at:

CPC Performance Engineering Ltd - Home

...and I asked about pricing etc, but he did say that the common fault was timing chain guides and VANOS noise, although commonly present, is not something to be overduly worried about (depends how loud). I can't remember the pricing for timing chain guides but Chris did quote it and it wasn't free but wasn't crazy. A vanos replacement was 5 hrs @£50 ph and if my grey cells are still okay, timing chain guides were a lot less?!?

I was still spooked by my noise so I took it to an engine re-build center, they said it was okay but again mentioned that the common issue was timing chain guides.

Charlie

Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the info, i'll have a good look through in the morning

i have always had the occasional rattle as it firsts starts, mainly when warm, which i put down to the vanos which i know is very common but this came on as an occasional grind to start with and then i could recreate it by revving the engine quite hard and then as the revs dies down there was a grinding graunching noise for a second or two although not very very loud but it was bugging me and as soon as i started it just now it was just a constant relatively loud knocking

i had spent all morning working out how to reorganise my finances to pay off some range rover repairs and other things - the little ****e must have known

Thanks for the input, this may turn into one of those epic threads

Also found this - I'll be dropping my pan next oil change:

BMW 740 engine failed timing guides M62 motor e38 bimmer merchant - YouTube

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C15xQwny3uk (if it is the guides, this may be worth doing aswell?)

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZpSwaG1uds (interesting cam shaft looking method)

I'm not far from you (60 miles - south), I could lend a spanner if it is the timing chain guides. I'm going to be facing the same problem at some point!

If poss could you record the noise if you have a smart phone (as brief as possible)?

Charlie

Hi,
Have you checked all your ancillaries? Pas, alternator, water pump and belt idlers? I'd pop the belt off and give them a spin by hand or a wiggle to see if they're worn. If memory serves you may have to drop the undertray but just follow belt replacement in Rave and see. Our P38 gave me a scare a year or so ago, turned out to be an idler bearing on its way out.

charliedurrant said:

Also found this - I'll be dropping my pan next oil change:

BMW 740 engine failed timing guides M62 motor e38 bimmer merchant - YouTube

and

Bmw E39 540i timing guide chain tension er replacement e53 X5 4.4 - YouTube (if it is the guides, this may be worth doing aswell?)

and

Militos Mobil BMW 740 Oil Timing Chain Guide Auto Repair Chicago - YouTube (interesting cam shaft looking method)

I'm not far from you (60 miles - south), I could lend a spanner if it is the timing chain guides. I'm going to be facing the same problem at some point!

If poss could you record the noise if you have a smart phone (as brief as possible)?

Charlie

Click to expand...

That's great, i had found one of the videos but the last one is really good and also a good point about the tensioner.

Thanks very much for the offer of help, i may well need that if i can't find my box of matches

i am going to record the noise and post it in a bit and depending on what i find i may drop the sump pan as well.

Thanks very much

forthbridge said:

Hi,
Have you checked all your ancillaries? Pas, alternator, water pump and belt idlers? I'd pop the belt off and give them a spin by hand or a wiggle to see if they're worn. If memory serves you may have to drop the undertray but just follow belt replacement in Rave and see. Our P38 gave me a scare a year or so ago, turned out to be an idler bearing on its way out.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, the noise did sound a bit like my alternator failing on my old mk3 escort some time ago so i will definitely have a check of that, i had the ac on at the time which i think has a pump, you never know

Difficult to say without hearing owt, but the chain tensioners are favorite. Vanos failing will throw up a fault, so a good start would be to code read. Then drop the sump as Saint suggests. It fairly involved but there are some great guides out there to walk you through. Best of luck with this, I feel your pain, I have been to that place.

hi, thanks for the reply, i'm just going to make a video and i also have an electronic stethoscope which when i touched it on the water pump the noise seemed really loud there but its difficult to get to other parts without losing fingers.
i have a faultmate extreme and an allcomms so i can also fault read although i am not familiar with the faultmate yet as haven't really used it before much.

stand by for an update, could it really be 'just' the water pump??

holidaychicken said:

hi, thanks for the reply, i'm just going to make a video and i also have an electronic stethoscope which when i touched it on the water pump the noise seemed really loud there but its difficult to get to other parts without losing fingers.
i have a faultmate extreme and an allcomms so i can also fault read although i am not familiar with the faultmate yet as haven't really used it before much.

stand by for an update, could it really be 'just' the water pump??

Click to expand...

Could be if the bearings are fecked ,fingers crossed. Whip the drive belt off and start her up. Good luck

Good thinking, this is where i am.
i tried an electronic microphone on various components and it does point to the water pump but see what you think.
the end fell out of the mic as it just pushes in and it lodged down beside the aircon pump which was nearly a **** cart.

i am uploading another video on youtube as it kept failing to upload on photobucket which is again with the microphone but i had to do the camera myself as my lad found his xbox more demanding.

http://vid51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/holidaychicken/Range%20Rover/IMG_3206_zpsozhy2y4s.mp4

http://vid51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/holidaychicken/Range%20Rover/IMG_3207_zpsnza8xrrx.mp4

But if you whip the belt off and the noise goes on start up you will know it's one of your auxiliaries. See if the water pump is noisy when turned by hand, same for the tensioner, idler and alternator

tomcat59alan said:

But if you whip the belt off and the noise goes on start up you will know it's one of your auxiliaries. See if the water pump is noisy when turned by hand, same for the tensioner, idler and alternator

Click to expand...

You are dead right and i will do that but it seemed tricky to get to the bolts to retighten the belt with the fan in place and didn't want to totally disable it until i was ready to continue as i still need to move it around out the front of my house.

i'll get the bits together to do the water pump, loosen the belt and then if its not the water pump then its major plan b and c, guides and vanos seals unless another ancillary part shows up as bad.

To be honest i am a bit of a chicken starting jobs as i started my rear suspension bushes 3 times before i got to the point of no return on the 4th attempt.

i did put the microphone to the alternator which was just buzzing and to the sump without any noise i could hear. the bits i really want to test are all behind the spinning choppy off finger bits

There is another bit of video on youtube but much the same as the one linked above, stand by and thanks for your input, very much appreciated all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcJWpesxjM8

is the noise there all the time or just when you rev it or on the over run?

holidaychicken said:

To be honest i am a bit of a chicken starting jobs as i started my rear suspension bushes 3 times before i got to the point of no return on the 4th attempt.

Click to expand...

I'm just the same - especially when nobody else seems to repair their own cars anymore, you start to doubt yourself!

The deep knocking sounds the same as mine and from comparison to the timing chain noise video link it doesn't sound like it's that (?). I'd still drop sump the pan though - even if it is the water pump.

Saint's guide to changing the water pump will help to remove the belt:

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f71/2002-2005-4-4-v8-m62-water-pump-replacement-213995.html

My pump was shot at 80,000 miles.

I have the viscous fan removal tool and a spanner to fit, it's no problem to have them sent up to you. I'm also coming through Rochester by train tomorrow to London on the first carriage (I could hand them over):


ArrDepRamsgate
07:19Dumpton Park07:2207:22Broadstairs07:2507:25Margate07:2907:30Westgate-On-Sea07:3307:33Birchington-On-Sea07:3707:37Herne Bay07:4507:46Chestfield & Swalecliffe07:4907:49Whitstable07:5207:53Faversham08:0108:03Sittingbourne08:1008:11Rainham (Kent)08:1808:19Gillingham (Kent)08:2308:24Chatham08:2808:28Rochester08:3008:31London Bridge09:0909:10


Charlie

Fergie46 said:

is the noise there all the time or just when you rev it or on the over run?

Click to expand...

hi, it started off as an occasional vibration type noise and then the only way to recreate it was to rev it quite high and as the revs died down at a certain point it would make the noise. i came indoors to look on the net and when i went back out to try it again it had changed to the constant knock it has now.
what are you thinking?

charliedurrant said:

I'm just the same - especially when nobody else seems to repair their own cars anymore, you start to doubt yourself!

The deep knocking sounds the same as mine and from comparison to the timing chain noise video link it doesn't sound like it's that (?). I'd still drop sump the pan though - even if it is the water pump.

Saint's guide to changing the water pump will help to remove the belt:

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f71/2002-2005-4-4-v8-m62-water-pump-replacement-213995.html

My pump was shot at 80,000 miles.

I have the viscous fan removal tool and a spanner to fit, it's no problem to have them sent up to you. I'm also coming through Rochester by train tomorrow to London on the first carriage (I could hand them over):


ArrDepRamsgate
07:19Dumpton Park07:2207:22Broadstairs07:2507:25Margate07:2907:30Westgate-On-Sea07:3307:33Birchington-On-Sea07:3707:37Herne Bay07:4507:46Chestfield & Swalecliffe07:4907:49Whitstable07:5207:53Faversham08:0108:03Sittingbourne08:1008:11Rainham (Kent)08:1808:19Gillingham (Kent)08:2308:24Chatham08:2808:28Rochester08:3008:31London Bridge09:0909:10


Charlie

Click to expand...

Hi Charlie,
i'm hoping its the pump and even if it is i will get the parts together to do the timing chain guides and also the vanos seals using the beisan kit and method so its done. it is also due an oil and filter change and i intend to flush the engine while i am about it so will drop the sump off when i do it and see whats going on in there. i remember when we changed the oil last time the drain plug had been stripped so we had to put in a longer plug so i have that to potentially deal with as well.

Thanks very much on the offer of the tools, that's really kind. i am taking my lad to college in the morning and then straight off to Essex for an appointment so i would miss you but don't want to hassle you on your journey. i ordered the tools today anyway in time to do it next weekend hopefully. i have already been through Saint's posting a few times to prepare.

if its the pump i can do that without too much drama hopefully but if i am going to do the guides and vanos then i really need to plan where and when i do it as its MOT is due next month and if i disable it on the road it could get to a point where its illegal if i don't get it done in time.

You are not very far from me, i quite often go to whitstable and herne bay or down to ramsgate with work.

what's the situation with your car then, are you still using it or is it parked up while you decide what to do?
cheers
Andy

holidaychicken said:

hi, it started off as an occasional vibration type noise and then the only way to recreate it was to rev it quite high and as the revs died down at a certain point it would make the noise. i came indoors to look on the net and when i went back out to try it again it had changed to the constant knock it has now.
what are you thinking?

Click to expand...

Well, just wondering if it was a reciprocating mass type noise ie crank/big end but these issues don't arise suddenly. Could be timing chain lash at certain revs on over run.

I think you've got the right idea with your investigative dismantling - always do the cheapest thing first. I am not over familiar with this engine - does the viscous fan bolt onto the water pump - if so try and see if the fan has any play in it eg stand in front of the car and try to push it backwards and forwards. Spin it also and see if there is any roughness. Viscous couplings can and do fail. Any fore and aft play could be the water pump bearings.

We've all been in your sitch at sometime or other - wish you well, keep us posted.

Literally