1970's Range Rover Petrol Pump Cutting Out

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M

[email protected]

Guest
I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically the
engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops. If i
turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the engine
will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the intervals
are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap, then sometimes
a 30 min gap.

I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?

Thanks for any help.

 
[email protected] wrote:
> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically the
> engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops. If i
> turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the engine
> will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the intervals
> are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap, then sometimes
> a 30 min gap.
>
> I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
> wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
> mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>

Does the engine sometimes run out of power? I would suggest changing
the fuel filter next to the pump - I had a similar experience with my V8
110, and changing the filter cleared it up.

Stuart
 
[email protected] wrote:

> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically the
> engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops. If i
> turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the engine
> will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the intervals
> are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap, then sometimes
> a 30 min gap.
>
> I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
> wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
> mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?
>
> Thanks for any help.

The pump runs continually. Fuel flows continually with a permanent
'bleed' back to the tank.

'Clicking like mad' is usually indicative of an air leak on the pump
inlet - broken pipe/hose or lack of fuel in the tank.

It could also be a bit of debris blocking the inlet, falling clear
when you stopped the pump (the fast clicking would be the pump
'catching up') and eventually blocking the line again.

Someone may also be along to tell you about the foibles of these pumps
which can, themselves, fail.
 

check tank for any water in it , drain out into tray and let stand for
an hour , then check if any water .

i had similar problem to you , i had water in my tank .

filter is useless one water in it and wont pass petrol .

mine happened in winter and the water froze in the filter .

the 12v feed wire from pump can get trapped under the pad between body
and chassis , mine had this happen .

make sure pump body is very well earthed to the chassis .

these pumps do have habit of running and then stopping without any
warning , and even when you remove and checked them they may not play
up .

id fit a new fuel pump, cheap from paddocks at £34 + vat or richard
at beamends can supply same .

loosen fuel line fittings on pump before removing pump from vehicle ,
use a HEXAGON spanner that has a gap in end of it , ie a brake nut
spanner , or youll round the flats off the fuel pipe nuts !!!.
im not sure of the size of spanner, 7/16 or 1/2 AF i think .

there is a tank drain bung in bottom of tank , or at least my 1975 R/R
had one , you can jack vehicle up one side so tank drains all out fully
..

i think when you stop and the pump ticks madly, this is because its
pumping fuel flat out for some reason , perhaps because pump stopped
running whilst driving , or because of a bad wiring connection .

i think theres a bullet connector about 6 inches away from the pump ,
in the 12v wire which is the one running into the CAP in middle of
pump, this cap should undo and come away to show the solder connection
..

you might have a loose wire connection at the pump body .

fit a new pump, new fuel filter, drain tank and check for water .

dont forget that the fuel filter housing has the rubber ring in its top
and you need to make sure it seals all around the cup properly .

i dont think youre getting fuel vapour locks [cavitation ] , but this
can happen with unleaded fuel , it happens on some PFA light aircraft
that use MOGAS [motoring gas] and doesnt happen when they run AVGAS .

..




[email protected] wrote:
> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically the
> engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops. If i
> turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the engine
> will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the intervals
> are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap, then sometimes
> a 30 min gap.
>
> I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
> wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
> mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?
>
> Thanks for any help.

 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically the
> engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops. If i
> turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the engine
> will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the intervals
> are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap, then sometimes
> a 30 min gap.
>
> I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
> wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
> mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>

Mine had something similar, but on a later model. After three weeks of
checking relays and fuses etc. turned out to be the wire to the pump had
broken, but was touching most of the time until we went down a mud hole when
the mud obviously moved the cable and broke the joint, eventually the
sparking made the cable dirty and lost conection.
Worth checking the wire.


 
[email protected] <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically
> the engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops.
> If i turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the
> engine will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the
> intervals are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap,
> then sometimes a 30 min gap.
>
> I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
> wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
> mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?
>
> Thanks for any help.

Good suggestions so far, do check though it's not sticking floats, though
I'd think from the detail you provide that this is not the case.

I think the pump on the early Rangie is the Facet extenal type? Check the
earth to it is good if so as well as the positive feed.

Other things to consider - fuel line rotted through and drawing air in
between the tank and pump... thus emptying the floats under load and
refilling once stalled and ignition on.. the pump will keep up for so long
until the float bowls empty. (Just a possibility).

Dad had a 1978 Classic Rangie in and out the garage numerous times, he was
told eventually that they removed some sort of filter from the end of the
fuel pickup that was getting munged up and gave a warning to not let the
fuel run as low as he would normally do due to the pipe now being shorter.
Never saw it myself as it was a garage job and I was a 'ickle lad then with
hair on my head too.

Let us know when you find the culprit.

Lee D


 
The facet has a filter in the bottom. It can "stick" and cause the issue you
are having. I had this with a new pump :(

When you turn off the ignition, the filter drops...and fuel will flow again.
As far as I recall it unscrews. Check it and make sure it can rise and fall
smoothly....also make sure the pump is fitted pointing the right way......

--
Neil


 

[email protected] wrote:
> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine. Basically the
> engine will run fine until all of a sudden it stutters and stops. If i
> turn the ignition off and on the pump clicks like mad and the engine
> will restart immediately. It doesn't happen often, but the intervals
> are not consistant, sometimes it can be a 5 minute gap, then sometimes
> a 30 min gap.
>
> I dont actually know how the fuel pump 'knows when to pump', and was
> wondering if anyone can enlighten me. Does the pump have some sort of
> mechanical pressure valve which turns it on and off at certain levels?
>
> Thanks for any help.

Try having a look at the thread "Please help - 6 cyl Series 3 Fuel
pump" of July 17 - it's possible that there may be some ideas there.
Best regards.

 
Thanks for all the suggestions, I think I've found the culprit: the
pump itself. Basically after checking the list of ideas below, I gave
the pump a good tap on the top to see what happened; it stopped,
another tap and it started again at full tilt. Bugger, should have hit
it to start with! I guess the solenoid is sticking or something.

1) I checked the fuel filter, cleaned the magnet etc,
2) Then cleared the inlet of dirt, and the oultlet just incase,
3) Then checked the earth and supply cables, both seemed fine,
4) I have to admit i didn't fancy draining the tank to look for water,
so i left that (pleased that i did now....),
5) I have recently had sticky floats and i cleared that up so didn't
check that again (also when that happens petrol pours out of the carb
breather),
6) I checked but couldn't hear any sucking noises as if air were being
drawn in along the supply line,

So has anybody got a good spare kicking about, or is somewhere like
paddocks my best bet?

On another note, I think my fuel system must have been modified because
i cant see any 'bleed' back to the tank, or i wander if that only
applys to the mechnical pumps?

Thanks again.

 
> Thanks for all the suggestions, I think I've found the culprit: the
> pump itself. Basically after checking the list of ideas below, I gave
> the pump a good tap on the top to see what happened; it stopped,
> another tap and it started again at full tilt. Bugger, should have hit
> it to start with! I guess the solenoid is sticking or something.
>

If the pump is like the old SU type then it is probably the contacts that
close to power the solenoid. They are just like the points contacts in a
distributor, and get pitted and burnt. If you are lucky you will be able to
get the cover off and clean them up with a fine file or emery paper (if they
are not too badly burnt away).

Regards
Jeff


 
I kept a 68 Mini's SU pump going forever by taking a distributor points
file to the contacts inside it. I got tired of opening the trunk to hit
it with a brick when it died.....

If the pump is the same you might be able to clean the points.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Mike wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the suggestions, I think I've found the culprit: the
> pump itself. Basically after checking the list of ideas below, I gave
> the pump a good tap on the top to see what happened; it stopped,
> another tap and it started again at full tilt. Bugger, should have hit
> it to start with! I guess the solenoid is sticking or something.
>
> 1) I checked the fuel filter, cleaned the magnet etc,
> 2) Then cleared the inlet of dirt, and the oultlet just incase,
> 3) Then checked the earth and supply cables, both seemed fine,
> 4) I have to admit i didn't fancy draining the tank to look for water,
> so i left that (pleased that i did now....),
> 5) I have recently had sticky floats and i cleared that up so didn't
> check that again (also when that happens petrol pours out of the carb
> breather),
> 6) I checked but couldn't hear any sucking noises as if air were being
> drawn in along the supply line,
>
> So has anybody got a good spare kicking about, or is somewhere like
> paddocks my best bet?
>
> On another note, I think my fuel system must have been modified because
> i cant see any 'bleed' back to the tank, or i wander if that only
> applys to the mechnical pumps?
>
> Thanks again.
 
Dougal,

You know you mentioned that i should have a return line back to the
tank, well i think its missing! In fact i'm convinced, but i cant
figure out how they got away without having one. Take another look at
the pic :

http://mbconfuse.googlepages.com/ZenithStromberg1.JPG

I think the return should be on the opposite side to the feed, and i
presume it can be a smaller pipe. I guess i just need to find the
correct type of union joint to fit.


> The pump runs continually. Fuel flows continually with a permanent
> 'bleed' back to the tank.
>
> 'Clicking like mad' is usually indicative of an air leak on the pump
> inlet - broken pipe/hose or lack of fuel in the tank.
>
> It could also be a bit of debris blocking the inlet, falling clear
> when you stopped the pump (the fast clicking would be the pump
> 'catching up') and eventually blocking the line again.
>
> Someone may also be along to tell you about the foibles of these pumps
> which can, themselves, fail.

 
Mike wrote:

> Dougal,
>
> You know you mentioned that i should have a return line back to the
> tank, well i think its missing! In fact i'm convinced, but i cant
> figure out how they got away without having one. Take another look at
> the pic :
>
> http://mbconfuse.googlepages.com/ZenithStromberg1.JPG
>
> I think the return should be on the opposite side to the feed, and i
> presume it can be a smaller pipe. I guess i just need to find the
> correct type of union joint to fit.

Now you've got me - this does rather tax the memory!

The return(spill) line was to maintain a flow of fuel to keep it cool
and prevent vapour locking.

Your fuel inlet from the pump comes in through the hose with the red
collar (beside orange oil filler, left of photo, right of car) - yes?

The tee piece on the left side carb (right side of photo) seems to
have a blanked off outlet to the front of the car. That's where I
would expect the spill return to be - it's my recollection of the
Range Rover setup. (I still have that old engine under a pile of stuff
and could look sometime if need be). The pipe size could be smaller,
although I don't think that it was, nor was there any restrictor in
the line to the best of my recollection.

Which fuel pump are you using - the Facet or an SU?
 

[email protected] wrote:

> I'm having a problem with the fuel supply to the engine.

Twin SUs ?

The pump is crap. The wiring to the pump is even worse. The relay
controlling it isn't much better,

Throw the pump away (far away) and fit a Facet (not a Solid State
though). It fits easily, as the SU pump on a carb Rangie is a near copy
of the Facet and they're easily interchanged. The Rangie SU pump bears
no relation to the well-known SU pump used on MGBs etc.

All wiring under the chassis of a Rangie is undersized, insulated with
a low grade plastic, and simply not up to the amount of weather it's
exposed to. Replace it all as a matter of course. OTOH, the
rubber-jacketed bullet connectors used are (for once) quite decent
quality and matching connectors can be had from Vehicle Wiring Products
here in the UK.

 
Your description sounds right. The fuel pump is very similar to a
Facet, but i think its a copy, i think i'll replace it with a Facet as
a matter of course. So basically i need to Un-blank off the outlet on
the right of the photo, find some pipe and a connector, and return the
excess fuel to the top of the tank.

I guess this could have been causing any amount of my problems, and
i've no idea what the origonal thinking behind removing the return line
was. I cant imagine its done the pump any good, pumping against a
constant pressure then the float is full.

 
There Zeneth Strombergs, but i imagine the pump is the same as for the
SU's? I think, as you suggest, i will replace it. Thanks for the
advice.

 
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Your description sounds right. The fuel pump is very similar to a
> Facet, but i think its a copy, i think i'll replace it with a Facet as
> a matter of course. So basically i need to Un-blank off the outlet on
> the right of the photo, find some pipe and a connector, and return the
> excess fuel to the top of the tank.
>
> I guess this could have been causing any amount of my problems, and
> i've no idea what the origonal thinking behind removing the return line
> was. I cant imagine its done the pump any good, pumping against a
> constant pressure then the float is full.
>

Yeahs you did mention the overflow spews out too once the floats full... now
that does have me concerned.

Lee D


 
Do you thing the over flowing could have been caused by the lack of a
return line (and a sticky float)? Maybe a seal was under too much
pressure and was passing fuel?

 
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do you thing the over flowing could have been caused by the lack of a
> return line (and a sticky float)? Maybe a seal was under too much
> pressure and was passing fuel?
>
It's only as strong as it's weakest link and it's got to got somewhere so
I'd guess yes and say your very lucky to have found it when you did.


Phew eh!

Lee


 
Mike wrote:

> Do you thing the over flowing could have been caused by the lack of a
> return line (and a sticky float)?

No. The 'sticky float'(more later) allowed the float chamber to overflow.

> Maybe a seal was under too much pressure and was passing fuel?

There is no seal.

The float itself may not have been sticking it's just as likely to
have been the needle valve (metal to metal seal) which the float operates.

The high pressure could have resulted in leaks elsewhere.

Continual work against the higher than normal pressure could have lead
to the early demise of your pump - unless it works OK under reduced
load when you reinstate the return to tank.
 
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