03 Range Rover 4.4 Gas Conversion

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D

Dave

Guest
Hi,

Can anyone make any recommendations for people who can do a quality job
of gas converting a range rover.

Cheers
David

 
On 10 Oct 2006 06:22:07 -0700, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Can anyone make any recommendations for people who can do a quality job
>of gas converting a range rover.
>
saying where you are might help! :)
 

"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10 Oct 2006 06:22:07 -0700, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >Can anyone make any recommendations for people who can do a quality job
> >of gas converting a range rover.
> >
> saying where you are might help! :)

I can do it, but I'm in the North of Scotland!
Badger.


 
> > >Can anyone make any recommendations for people who can do a quality job
> > >of gas converting a range rover.

I know I'm not being very constructive but a colleague's experience of LPG
may be of interest to readers:
He thought he was being very clever when he bought a new Vauxhall with a
factory fitted LPG conversion, he was going to save wads of money...
Well that was until he tried to renew his insurance and found that everyone
was charging way over the odds for LPG, it's now risen to nearly double that
for a diesel.
Then he found that the local quick-fit type places wouldn't even fit a set
of tyres never mind do repair work as their insurance won't allow LPG
fuelled cars on the premises! (though they never complained about the LPG
tank in my camper, go figure).
Then he tried to make a claim on his extended warranty to be told it didn't
cover an LPG car, no not just the LPG bit but the whole car! (that's now in
the hands of the legal profession).
Then he managed to find a pump that apparently wasn't set right and over
filled his tank, at least that's what the dealer claims, it was ok until
next day when it was warmer and he got a flashing message on the dash
telling him to evacuate the car immediately, which he did even though he was
on a motorway, only to see clouds of gas escaping from somewhere under the
car.
Needless to say he wished he'd never bought it and wants rid, but surprise
surprise can't get much of a trade in for it.

I'm only relaying his sorry tale, as they say your mileage may vary...

Greg


 
On 2006-10-10, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well that was until he tried to renew his insurance and found that
> everyone was charging way over the odds for LPG, it's now risen to
> nearly double that for a diesel.

Personally I'd rather stick with a diesel than wander around with a
pressurised bomb in the back of my car.. Petrol's bad enough as it is
but LPG isn't something I'd like in a car in case of a collision. I
have no idea if it's genuinely any more dangerous but it certainly
doesn't inspire confidence.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2006-10-10, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Personally I'd rather stick with a diesel than wander around with a
> pressurised bomb in the back of my car.. Petrol's bad enough as it is
> but LPG isn't something I'd like in a car in case of a collision. I
> have no idea if it's genuinely any more dangerous but it certainly
> doesn't inspire confidence.

RUBBISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A petrol tank is made from thin sheet steel pressings or injection moulded
plastic, either WILL split open in a collision, spewing highly flammable
liquid and vapour all around.An LPG tank is the same as a propane cylinder,
go attack one with a sledgehammer and see if you can put much of a dent in
it - you might just manage if it's a big hamer and you are strong! Either
way, you WILL NOT split an LPG tank open in the same way as a petrol tank.
If a car is on fire and the heat gets to the petrol tank, be prepared for an
explosion. An LPG tank has valves that are designed to relieve ay
overpressure whic will indeed fuel the fire, but not cause an explosion.
I know what I'd rather have in a collision and it isn't a thin, flimsy
petrol tank.
Vauxhall's line-fit LPG systems are notorious to say the least for being
unreliable, but as for a pump's pressure causing an overfill - that's crap!
The ONLY thing that can cause an overfill is a faulty fill valve unit in the
tank not shutting off at the 80% fill point. The valve cannot be overcome
just by pressure, due to the nature of its design.
Whilst a lot of insurers will only insure an LPG car if it has been
certified by an LPGA approved installer, I have only had one occurence of a
loading to a premium in over 8 years of personally driving LPG converted
vehicles, and that was solely because it was an ammendment to the policy
mid-term, there was no additional premium on renewal.
Badger.


 
Ian Rawlings wrote:

> Personally I'd rather stick with a diesel than wander around with a
> pressurised bomb in the back of my car.. Petrol's bad enough as it is
> but LPG isn't something I'd like in a car in case of a collision. I
> have no idea if it's genuinely any more dangerous but it certainly
> doesn't inspire confidence.

As per Badger's reply - Bollocks. I've attended more LPG powered
vehicle fires than I can remember (as a full-time fireman) and have
never seen one explode. I've seen pressure relief valves release LPG in
a controlled manner which gives an exciting shot of flame in complete
safety. I have however seen a couple of exploding petrol tanks which
tend to generate a need for clean underwear on the part of all involved.

LPG is a damn sight safer than petrol in almost all circumstances (it
makes a better bang when it escapes unburnt into sewers). As part of
the training courses we used to run for service station staff we used to
light up the valve on a 9kg LPG cylinder to show them that burning LPG
isn't a cause for panic - I'd happily sit on the cylibder whilst talking
to them about it (and I haven't got enough of a death wish to do
anything that might endanger my life). Turning the cylinder upside down
to let liquid LPG escape is always a giggle though - you can get a 20
foot stream of flame which normally wakes the audience up.


--
EMB
 
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Then he found that the local quick-fit type places wouldn't even fit a set
> of tyres never mind do repair work as their insurance won't allow LPG
> fuelled cars on the premises! (though they never complained about the LPG
> tank in my camper, go figure).

They shouldn't be let loose with a tax disc holder never mind a trolley jack
within 100 yards of an LPG tank.

In my experience they are well meaning but generally dangerous people to
have working on a car.

> Then he managed to find a pump that apparently wasn't set right and over
> filled his tank, at least that's what the dealer claims, it was ok until
> next day when it was warmer and he got a flashing message on the dash
> telling him to evacuate the car immediately, which he did even though he
> was
> on a motorway, only to see clouds of gas escaping from somewhere under the
> car.

**** happens - Would a Petrol car give any warning at all of a leak?

> Needless to say he wished he'd never bought it and wants rid, but surprise
> surprise can't get much of a trade in for it.

Sell it private, compared to a Petrol car it'll actually atract buyers
rather than being just another rep-mobile.

Lee D



 
On 2006-10-10, Badger <[email protected]> wrote:

> RUBBISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah yeah. It's a pressurised system, which you state yourself, and
if it leaks it'll huff nasty gas everywhere. I don't like petrol
either, but a pressurised vessel stuffed with gas doesn't sound like
an improvement.

I'll stick with diesel as much as I can, you have to put a lot of
effort into making that go up!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-10-10, EMB <[email protected]> wrote:

> As per Badger's reply - Bollocks.

I'm not 100% sure what you or badger are battering on about, are you
saying that LPG is safer than diesel? I said that I don't know if LPG
is safer than petrol, so quite where the "bollocks" bit comes from I
don't know.

I suspect both of you are taking offence at a statement that was never
made, not coverted to Islam by any chance have you?

> I've seen pressure relief valves release LPG in a controlled manner
> which gives an exciting shot of flame in complete safety.

Hehe, a sheet of completely safe flame. I'm a convert, no more diesel
for me!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
"Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> They shouldn't be let loose with a tax disc holder never mind a trolley
jack
> within 100 yards of an LPG tank.
>
> In my experience they are well meaning but generally dangerous people to
> have working on a car.

Well if you think everyone is going to pay dealer prices I'm afraid you've
got another think coming!. I have one particular places I've come to trust
and while they've made the odd silly they've also bent over backwards to
help on many occasions. The most important thing to me is that they've never
tried to cheat me which is more than I can say for every dealer I've ever
used, oh and dealers make just as many sillies.

> **** happens - Would a Petrol car give any warning at all of a leak?

Er, would a petrol car suddenly produce clouds of explosive and asphixiant
gas?, the fact that they saw fit to install the warning device speaks
volumes to me.

Greg


 
"Badger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> An LPG tank is the same as a propane cylinder,
> go attack one with a sledgehammer and see if you can put much of a dent in
> it

Try hitting the brass valve and watch it fly across the room, believe me
they won't stand a heavy knock, that's why they're protected by the steel
frame around the top, a system is only as strong as it's weakest part.

> but as for a pump's pressure causing an overfill - that's crap!

Yes he suspected as much, he's also had a lot of reliability issues and
suspected a vehicle fault caused the over filling, but of course the dealer
said it was someone else's fault, the same dealer that sold him the
worthless warranty...

Greg


 
"EMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> LPG is a damn sight safer than petrol in almost all circumstances (it
> makes a better bang when it escapes unburnt into sewers). As part of
> the training courses we used to run for service station staff we used to
> light up the valve on a 9kg LPG cylinder to show them that burning LPG
> isn't a cause for panic - I'd happily sit on the cylibder whilst talking
> to them about it (and I haven't got enough of a death wish to do
> anything that might endanger my life). Turning the cylinder upside down
> to let liquid LPG escape is always a giggle though - you can get a 20
> foot stream of flame which normally wakes the audience up.

Obviously a burning stream of gas coming out of the valve isn't a big
problem as it's barely any different from attaching a blow lamp burner to
one, but if they're so harmless why do you play hoses to cool them if they
are being heated by a fire?.

I recall seeing a test done with some large propane tanks deliberately
heated by a fire, so long as the safety vent was functioning they just
produced a big flame when the valve opened, no problem. But then they jammed
the safety vent and repeated the experiment, that tank swelled to about
double it's diameter and then exploded with such force that it demolished
the reinforced concrete walls that had been built to contain it. It didn't
simply burn off slowly over minutes, it exploded in a fraction of a second.
So they're fairly safe so long as that single safety device works perfectly
when needed...

Anyway, I didn't intend to start an argument about the safety of LPG
conversions but to point out that they can turn out to be a costly
nightmare.

Greg


 
Greg wrote:

> Obviously a burning stream of gas coming out of the valve isn't a big
> problem as it's barely any different from attaching a blow lamp burner to
> one, but if they're so harmless why do you play hoses to cool them if they
> are being heated by a fire?.

So as to stop them venting - the last thing you want in the aftermath of
a fire is a cloud of flammable gas hanging around.

>
> I recall seeing a test done with some large propane tanks deliberately
> heated by a fire, so long as the safety vent was functioning they just
> produced a big flame when the valve opened, no problem. But then they jammed
> the safety vent and repeated the experiment, that tank swelled to about
> double it's diameter and then exploded with such force that it demolished
> the reinforced concrete walls that had been built to contain it. It didn't
> simply burn off slowly over minutes, it exploded in a fraction of a second.
> So they're fairly safe so long as that single safety device works perfectly
> when needed...

A phenomenon known as a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Evaporating Vapour
Explosion). Incredibily destructive and bloody frightening, but highly
unlikely to occur in any 1st World produced LPG equipment.

>
> Anyway, I didn't intend to start an argument about the safety of LPG
> conversions but to point out that they can turn out to be a costly
> nightmare.

Indeed, and I was merely trying to point out the sheer stupidity of the
various entities that wanted to know nothing about an LPG powered vehicle.
 
On or around Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:34:22 +0100, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On 2006-10-10, Badger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> RUBBISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Yeah yeah. It's a pressurised system, which you state yourself, and
>if it leaks it'll huff nasty gas everywhere. I don't like petrol
>either, but a pressurised vessel stuffed with gas doesn't sound like
>an improvement.

still true that the tank is a hell of a lot tougher, and has better safety
systems in place. A properly installed system has no less than 3 shut-off
valves which require a 12V supply to open and shut under spring pressure.

Yes, it can vent gas in the event of a fire. But it doesn't spew gallons of
flammable liquid everywhere - and if you get into a violent enough collision
that you manage to rupture the tank, then you're not likely to be in much
condition to notice...

I guess a very hot localised fire on one spot could soften the tank so it'd
rupture. I'm not sure how you'd get such a fire, though, except from an oxy
torch. Although pressurised, it's not very high pressure, normally between
100 and 150 psi, ish.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)
 
Greg wrote:

> Try hitting the brass valve and watch it fly across the room, believe me
> they won't stand a heavy knock, that's why they're protected by the steel
> frame around the top, a system is only as strong as it's weakest part.

The pressure in an LPG cylinder at ambient temparature is only around
150PSI so knocking the valve off isn't going to do much mechanical
damage. It's the high pressure cylinders like industrial gases and dive
cylinders that cause mayhem when the valve detaches.
 
On 2006-10-11, EMB <[email protected]> wrote:

> The pressure in an LPG cylinder at ambient temparature is only around
> 150PSI so knocking the valve off isn't going to do much mechanical
> damage.

He wasn't suggesting it would fly around like a released balloon, it's
a weak point that allows what's inside to leak out in an uncontrolled
manner. A petrol system needs gravity to help the fuel leak
catastrophically whereas an LPG system will happily squirt the fuel
all over the place without the aid of gravity.

Also it's petrol vapour that explodes, not petrol, and petrol vapour
makes up a small percentage of the fuel load. If I understand it
correctly, an LPG system will leak the entire fuel load as explosive
vapour.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:46:34 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Yes, it can vent gas in the event of a fire. But it doesn't spew gallons of
>flammable liquid everywhere - and if you get into a violent enough collision
>that you manage to rupture the tank, then you're not likely to be in much
>condition to notice...

I'd assume that the multivalve is the weak point on the tank. I'm sure
mine was made of plastic! While im quite happy that i couldnt damage
the tank I'm sure that i could smash the multivalve off with one good
hit?. Its only held on with 6 or 4 little cap screws too IIRC.

Ive seem petrol cars tanks explode when in flames (I lived in leeds
for a few years!), so i dont really think that LPG can be any more
unsafe!
 
Ian Rawlings wrote:

> Also it's petrol vapour that explodes, not petrol, and petrol vapour
> makes up a small percentage of the fuel load. If I understand it
> correctly, an LPG system will leak the entire fuel load as explosive
> vapour.

Correct, although the flammable limits of LPG in air are relatively
narrow (not that that's much comfort after you've just been incinerated).
 
"EMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Greg wrote:
>
> > Try hitting the brass valve and watch it fly across the room, believe me
> > they won't stand a heavy knock, that's why they're protected by the
steel
> > frame around the top, a system is only as strong as it's weakest part.
>
> The pressure in an LPG cylinder at ambient temparature is only around
> 150PSI so knocking the valve off isn't going to do much mechanical
> damage. It's the high pressure cylinders like industrial gases and dive
> cylinders that cause mayhem when the valve detaches.

Actually I meant the valve flies across the room, i.e. detaches VERY easily
under impact as I found in the distant past, I wasn't suggesting some
Hollywood fantasy with the cylinder becoming a rocket :cool:.

Greg


 
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