Starting trouble - Must be starter circuit?

[johnyelland1234]

I noticed a earthing point on the starter and one on the engine, neither which had a earth so I could try and earth them together. I'll also put the ceramic ends on my upgraded glow plugs as they dont have them yet.

I'll also try to keep the glow plugs going for a longer time and try again...

 

[johnyelland1234]

Actually, if the glow plugs are working and the starter is turning, the engine should start, could this be down to a fuel problem?

I have to go to work now but i'll check my fuel and lines tomorrow.

It worked well (apart from glow plugs) before xmas and I got back from leave on the 6th and thats where these problems started.

 

[Sean]

forget the glow plugs a good engine doesnt need them to start - if you've got fuel and the starter is spinning fast enough it should start, unless is old and worn and very low on compression

 

[johnyelland1234]

well, i tightened the glow plugs and charged the battery.

The starter turned quickly-ish, but still nothing.

I opened the fuel lines and bled them from the filter (which was full) and to the carb and the outlets. Couldn't tell if there was air in there or not.

I'm gonna see if I can get some jump leads tonight and use the work crew cab thing to see if its the battery at fault.

Also added a cup full of AVTUR as it has FSII in it and should prevent temperature related problems in the fuel.

 

[fenby1976]

Have you worked out what type of plugs you've got and wired them appropriately? and have you put the starter circuit back to how it should be? Have you ever heard the engine run? These engines have a manual cable operated fuel cut off valve on the fuel injection pump (for switching the engine off). Is that working properly and is the lever in the 'run' position? If the engine is a bit tired a spray of easy-start into the inlet manifold will help it start.

 

[fenby1976]

I'll also put the ceramic ends on my upgraded glow plugs as they dont have them yet.

Only the old series type glow plugs need the ceramic insulators.

 

[johnyelland1234]

I have the newer style glow plugs.

I got another military land rover and tried to jump start mine.

The battery pretty much did everything it used to, the jumping didn't help and so it's not the battery.

Im gonna get it towed to work on camp and my boss is going to bleed the fuel system and check out the electrics (he's a electrician).

Hopefully he'll be able to get it started...

Fingers crossed...

 

[johnyelland1234]

Ok, we decided to warm the glow plugs and then try to bump start it.

It bumped really well and it started very easily.

I then drove to get some fuel and drove it back, parked up and turned it off.

On trying to start it again, the starter cranked very slowly and after about 10 seconds it started again, bearing in mind the engine was probably very hot.

I then turned it off again and tried to start it a little later and nothing.

So its definitely not the fuel and i'm gonna get an auto electrician to come down at the end of the month to check it all over.

Any more input?

 

[Sean]

you've still not had the starter out yet have you ?

 

[fenby1976]

Any more input?

Have you undone all the relevant electrical connections, sandpapered them and put it back together yet? Are the electrical connections still smoking? As you've worked out that you have parallel glow plugs you can make them work better by bypassing the coil - after doing that you should see about 12v at each of the glowplugs when you turn on the pre-heater switch. After cleaning all connections I'd try borrowing a suitable battery which is known to be in good condition and fit that (jump leads don't make a very good connection). If it's still not turning over fast enough then try jamming an old spanner accross the terminals of the starter solonoid (on the starter motor) with the starter key being turned simultaneaously; Don't use a knife, it'll melt If the starter motor is still not turning the engine over fast enough then you should be able to conclude that there is a problem with the starter motor itself and not just the solonoid - in that case repair the starter motor or get a new one complete with solonoid. If the spanner accross the terminals thing does work then the problem is likely to be the starter solonoid, in which case just get a new one of those and fit it to the starter motor.

 

[johnyelland1234]

awesome thanks for the help, i'll give it a go tomorrow.

If I then fail to get a good result, i'll remove the starter as Sean said as I haven't had much time this week.

I'll then inspect it for wear etc.

Again, thanks for the help

 

[johnyelland1234]

Well, finally an update.

I have bought a new starter solenoid, cleaned all of the connections and have a starter semi recon kit.

I have now tried to remove the starter to do the work to it on my lightweight 2.25 diesel land rover.

Problem is after undoing all of the bolts, theres no room to simply 'slide it out' like in the haynes manual.

the bottom of the 3 bolts is a permanent bolt and cannot be removed, which means that I can't remove the starter due to it being too long and hitting the exhaust down pipe.

Heres the stud/bolt im talking about:

[img=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7042/dscf2248db9.th.jpg]

And here's another picture of my attempts to take the starter out:

[img=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5029/dscf2249bf7.th.jpg]

If anyone has any tips on taking the starter out, advice would be greatly received.

 

[brnocz]

take the exaust off the manifold then go under neath and turn the starter on its end to get it out

 

[CharlesY]

If anyone has any tips on taking the starter out, advice would be greatly received.

Tip one - avoid brute force. There is usually a less violent way, but it is a LandRover .... just threatening some bits with a big hammer can start them coming off. Stuck bolts can almost always be removed eventually (it may take a long time) by tapping them on the head with a modest size of hammer. You may need to tap hundreds of times, but sooner or later it will come loose 99 times out of 100. And 'tapping' does not mean full belt bashing on 8mm or 10mm bolts with a two-pound hammer.

Tip Two - ask for advice from Landyzone. There IS someone out there who knows how to do what you are trying to do, and even better, how to do it the smart way. There are lots of tricks and wheezes!

Tip Three - don't expect everything to happen in any obvious way.

Tip Four - if something gets in your way ... if all else fails, MOVE IT. But ask in case there's a way round it.

Tip Five - take the battery right out FIRST and put it on a slow charger. That way you won't get a big short circuit, AND the battery will be full.

Tip six - you don't NEED to put bolts back from the side they came from. The factory fitted them that way for THEIR convenience then, not yours now.

It goes on and on. I think it is called learning by experience.

CharlesY

 

[Davec]

Going back to look at the earlier photos whoever put your engine in cobbled the diesel manifold to a petrol front pipe , it's probably the lower flanged joint (that shouldn't be on a diesel) that is getting in the way, so dropping the exhaust is going to be the only answer.
It's sounding and looking as if whoever fitted the engine was a bit of a botcher, and possibly didn't really know what he was doing.

 

[CharlesY]

I haven't read the whole post but have they fitted the wrong glowplugs?

In a 2.25 diesel the 4 plugs are wired IN SERIES, thus greatly reducing the current across the resistor on the dash.

If you have 4 WRONG plugs fitted IN PARALLEL, a collossal current will be drawn over the resistor which WILL go red hot and burn out, if it doesn't set the whole car on fire first.

You MUST sort this out pronto, and be aware that if the wrong parallel plugs are fitted but wired through the resistor, the chances are thet the plugs will not heat up properly.

CharlesY

 

[CharlesY]

I haven't read the whole post but have they fitted the wrong glowplugs?

In a 2.25 diesel the 4 plugs are wired IN SERIES, thus greatly reducing the current across the resistor on the dash.

If you have 4 WRONG plugs fitted IN PARALLEL, a collossal current will be drawn over the resistor which WILL go red hot and burn out, if it doesn't set the who car on fire first.

You MUST sort this out pronto, and be aware that if the wrong parallel plugs are fitted but wired through the resistor, the chances are thet the plugs will not heat up properly.

CharlesY

Now I have read the whole post.

The starter connection is going red hot because of RESISTANCE either inside or more likely where the cable bolts on that is going red hot. This resistance is causing the voltage drop.

At that voltage forget trying to start the engine.

Sort the connections at the starter, and a good tip after cleaning every bit shining bright is to add a few clean washers to make the "sandwich effect" better between the cable tag and the copper bolt on the starter

The INSIDES of the starter solenoid is a HUGE switch. That is the heads of the two large copper bolts INSIDE are the heads of the two threaded ends where the big cables are bolted on to OUTSIDE. Connection is made when the solenoid bangs a copper bar across the bolt heads. They do eventually get burned. It is possible to open it up (needs a soldering iron) to clean them or replace them,

CharlesY

 

[nrgserv]

Now I have read the whole post.

The starter connection is going red hot because of RESISTANCE either inside or more likely where the cable bolts on that is going red hot. This resistance is causing the voltage drop.

At that voltage forget trying to start the engine.

Sort the connections at the starter, and a good tip after cleaning every bit shining bright is to add a few clean washer to make trhe "sandwich effect" better between the cable tag and the copper bolt on the starter

The INSIDES of the starter solenoid is a HUGE switch. That is the heads of the two large copper bolts INSIDE are the heads of the two threaded ends where the big cables are bolted on to OUTSIDE. Connection is made when the solenoid bangs a copper bar across the bolt heads. The do eventually get burned. It is possible to open it up (needs a soldering iron) to clean them or replace them,

CharlesY

wayhey!
read the whole thread before the last post said what i wanted to!
think its been said before, but the petrol solenoid looks to be fitted for glowplugs. also, you dont need the ballast resistor with the new type plugs. only thing i didnt read which might have been relevant was "is the starter a 24volt one"?
good luck opening the solenoid up!
even more good luck trying to re asemble it.........
nrg

 

[CharlesY]

If the starter is a 24 volt one, and the car is a 12 volt system, the starter wouldn't be able to start a moped, never mind a cold 1.25 diesel.

Scrape the crap off it and it will be stamped somewhere 12V or 24V ... with any luck.

CharlesY

 

[johnyelland1234]

Well i've ordered a new front pipe for a diesel 2.25 engine which is what i should have, it should be here tuesday ish i think.

As for the connections, I have cleaned everything up and connected it all up again, I have a new solenoid to go onto the starter.

As the exhaust has been on for a while i'll have to cut the front pipe off and then split the nuts to get the flange off, as Land rover obviously never knew about sockets when it was built (as none of them can get on due to clearance on the side).

So, it'll be a case of cut exhaust off, starter out, recon starter and clean connections, new solenoid on and refit. Then new remove exhaust flange and fit new exhaust front pipe.

The land rover did start when I first got it, usually pretty well too but since i left it for a month when i went away, It wont start anything.

All fun and games so far *sigh*