Freelander 1 Freelander 1, A modern classic?

[Nodge68]

If a modern audi E-tron and Tesla get 320mi - 400mi from their extensively tested and lets face it expensive batteries, how far would cheap off the shelf batteries get you?
Jaguars I pace gets 298mi etc ete
Why does a Tesla weigh more than my P38?

Why is every EV heavier than its ICE counterpart?

Because all of those vehicles are pushing the limits on range and are stuffed with advanced technology. The actual battery on those weigh about 500Kgs, but like I said, they're pushing the limits of technology. Also all those vehicles have serious performance, which takes big batteries, active battery cooling and heating, motor cooling and so on. All this added complexity adds masses of weight to a vehicle.

For a home made EV, performance is secondary to range, off the shelf components are utilised and there's no cutting edge technology, as the vehicle has already been made. This does make for a comparatively light EV, although range won't be anything like as much as a £50-80K Tesla.

Lots of questions, it wouldn't be that simple and tbh with 37million cars sold last year and 1.2 mil being EV AND hybrid an the maj sold in china i doubt you'd need to rush out to convert..

EVs are currently being sold as a designer items or premium products. They're not made on the same scale as petrol engine vehicles, so are regarded as niche items. The price of EVs at the moment reflects that, and this is what is keeping EV sales low.
Hybrids are pointless in my opinion, as they're still petrol powered most of the time.

As i said LPG is less than 1/3 of the conversion price, will gets you further, and the refil time isn't more than 2 minutes

True but LPG is still a fossil fuel and as such still produces CO2, which will face tight controls in the future, even though it's a way off yet.

 

[Henry_b]

Because all of those vehicles are pushing the limits on range and are stuffed with advanced technology. The actual battery on those weigh about 500Kgs, but like I said, they're pushing the limits of technology. Also all those vehicles have serious performance, which takes big batteries, active battery cooling and heating, motor cooling and so on. All this added complexity adds masses of weight to a vehicle.

For a home made EV, performance is secondary to range, off the shelf components are utilised and there's no cutting edge technology, as the vehicle has already been made. This does make for a comparatively light EV, although range won't be anything like as much as a £50-80K Tesla.

EVs are currently being sold as a designer items or premium products. They're not made on the same scale as petrol engine vehicles, so are regarded as niche items. The price of EVs at the moment reflects that, and this is what is keeping EV sales low.
Hybrids are pointless in my opinion, as they're still petrol powered most of the time.


True but LPG is still a fossil fuel and as such still produces CO2, which will face tight controls in the future, even though it's a way off yet.

Cost prohibative as i siad, and if you're getting less than 300mi with this conversion then whats the point of shelling out?

LPG as i posted above in the links has a many years of life left in it yet.

And is cheaper etc etc etc..

Co2 on my V8 is next to nothing on LPG a modern vehilce you'd be looking at nothing out the exhaust, They are also kitted to run CNG..

 

[GrumpyGel]

Hybrids are pointless in my opinion, as they're still petrol powered most of the time.

I like the idea of a hybrid.

The boss has a big Lexus SUV hybrid, it has potent performance and goes far further on a litre of fuel than my Freelander.

Its just a payoff between that performance/running economy and the complexity/initial cost/possible maintenance nighmares.

 

[Henry_b]

I like the idea of a hybrid.

The boss has a big Lexus SUV hybrid, it has potent performance and goes far further on a litre of fuel than my Freelander.

Its just a payoff between that performance/running economy and the complexity/initial cost/possible maintenance nighmares.

The outlander PHEV does 138mpg

 

[Nodge68]

Cost prohibative as i siad, and if you're getting less than 300mi with this conversion then whats the point of shelling out?

The average journey is something like 12 miles, so most of the time, a 300 miles range is pointless.

LPG as i posted above in the links has a many years of life left in it yet.

Right now it does. But diesel was the fuel of the future, but now look at its social standing.

And is cheaper etc etc etc

Co2 on my V8 is next to nothing on LPG a modern vehilce you'd be looking at nothing out the exhaust, They are also kitted to run CNG.

CO and CO2 emissions from LPG are only 30% lower than petrol, and no lower than a diesel, which is already low on greenhouse gas emissions anyway.
Any time a hydrocarbon fuel is burned, CO and CO2 are produced as it's a chemical reaction.

However having a huge V8 running on LPG is way more environmentally damaging than someone running a small engine vehicle on petrol.

 

[Nodge68]

The outlander PHEV does 138mpg

I know someone who has one as a company car and he gets nowhere near that MPG, when used as an every day vehicle. In controlled economy tests it may well produce amazing MPG, but out on the open road, driving it at normal speeds, MPG is little better than an equivalent diesel vehicle.

 

[Henry_b]

The average journey is something like 12 miles, so most of the time, a 300 miles range is pointless.

Right now it does. But diesel was the fuel of the future, but now look at its social standing.





CO and CO2 emissions from LPG are only 30% lower than petrol, and no lower than a diesel, which is already low on greenhouse gas emissions anyway.
Any time a hydrocarbon fuel is burned, CO and CO2 are produced as it's a chemical reaction.

However having a huge V8 running on LPG is way more environmentally damaging than someone running a small engine vehicle on petrol.

Real world test from emissions meters shows a reduction of upto 60% and more on modern vehicles when compared to diesel, five times less NOx is emitted. LPG vehicles are significantly lower on particleemissions as well. ... It takes 20 LPG vehicles to emit the same amount of NOx as one diesel vehicle. Also One diesel vehicle emits 120 times the amount of fine particles as the equivalent LPG vehicle.
My V8 on LPG produced less than the equiv Fiesta, so no you're wrong in that regard..


And diesel was a lie from the start LPG has since the 70s been a green fuel..

And i urge you to read the links above..

Oh and you can argue the same for EV. 'tis all rosy now, wait until later.

 

[Henry_b]

I know someone who has one as a company car and he gets nowhere near that MPG, when used as an every day vehicle. In controlled economy tests it may well produce amazing MPG, but out on the open road, driving it at normal speeds, MPG is little better than an equivalent diesel vehicle.

The new one not the old one..

And even if it got half it would still be better than the best Derv today.

 

[Nodge68]

I like the idea of a hybrid.

The boss has a big Lexus SUV hybrid, it has potent performance and goes far further on a litre of fuel than my Freelander

At slow speed, then yes they "may" use less petrol. However get them up to motorway speeds and a hybrid is no better than any other petrol engine vehicle, and often a lot worse than a diesel. Why else do we see the God awful Toyota Prius pottering along in the slow lane at 55 MPH? Reason, if it did 70 MPH, the MPG would be the same as a 1.6 Ford Focus, which costs half the money.

Our new Mazda CX5 petrol does 37 MPG round our Cornish roads, used for a mix of short (2 mile) trips, and longer trips to the main towns. If I drive that at a steady 60 MPH, it will average over 50 MPG, which isn't much less than a hybrid, but without the extra complexity and fragility of the more complex system used.

 

[Henry_b]

At slow speed, then yes they "may" use less petrol. However get them up to motorway speeds and a hybrid is no better than any other petrol engine vehicle, and often a lot worse than a diesel. Why else do we see the God awful Toyota Prius pottering along in the slow lane at 55 MPH? Reason, if it did 70 MPH, the MPG would be the same as a 1.6 Ford Focus, which costs half the money.

Our new Mazda CX5 petrol does 37 MPG round our Cornish roads, used for a mix of short (2 mile) trips, and longer trips to the main towns. If I drive that at a steady 60 MPH, it will average over 50 MPG, which isn't much less than a hybrid, but without the extra complexity and fragility of the more complex system used.

Modern systems are very reliable.

Many of my customers get north of 88mpg with the new systems.

Which is pretty good.

 

[GrumpyGel]

It goes back to that style of driving thing. A hybrid is only going to really be good if you brake a lot - so at a constant speed on the open road, as you say its not going to miraculously find 'free energy' from somewhere and will run at the same economy as a non-hybrid - in fact, probably worse because it has more weight to carry around.

But as you say, most journeys are short and not constant speed. These journeys are where most fuel is burnt, and the hybrid gives real benefit. You could take it the whole hog and say ditch the hybrid and go EV to 'eliminate' the fuel cost - however - not all journeys are short. There will be plenty of journeys that will push the range and exceed the range of an EV, so it can't be used (I've never seen EV charging points on the river bank!). So, if you have an EV, you're then looking at having a 2nd vehicle for longer journeys. If your family runs 2 vehicle, that's the ideal situation - an EV and a ICE or hybrid.

 

[Henry_b]

If avergae mileage of everyone is so low why don't all cars come with 3 gallon tanks

 

[GrumpyGel]

If avergae mileage of everyone is so low why don't all cars come with 3 gallon tanks

They do.

Most will also allow you to put more in if you want - saves you having to stop frequently for fuel.

The fuel tanks are also well protected and tucked away not impacting on luggage space or, if you don't want luggage, LPG tanks

 

[Henry_b]

They do.

Most will also allow you to put more in if you want - saves you having to stop frequently for fuel.

The fuel tanks are also well protected and tucked away not impacting on luggage space or, if you don't want luggage, LPG tanks

Oh yeh pick on meh gaz eh?!

Where do ya put those specul banties

My tank is in me spare wheel well 95ltr

or you can have them underslung

 

[Nodge68]

Real world test from emissions meters shows a reduction of upto 60% and more on modern vehicles when compared to diesel, five times less NOx is emitted.

Do you have the government approved test results to prove that claim.

LPG vehicles are significantly lower on particleemissions as well.

LPG does produce a lot less particulates than an old EU 3 or 4 diesel true. However an EU 5 diesel produces so few particulates, that they're barely measurable, and an EU6 diesel produces no measurable particulates. Things have improved with diesels, to the point that they're just as clean as any other fuel.

It takes 20 LPG vehicles to emit the same amount of NOx as one diesel vehicle. Also One diesel vehicle emits 120 times the amount of fine particles as the equivalent LPG vehicle.

Not true with an EU 6 diesel engine. Yes the diesel will produce NOX due to high combustion temperatures, but nothing like 120 times as much.

My V8 on LPG produced less than the equiv Fiesta, so no you're wrong in that regard..

Dream on. There's no way that an old RR V8 with an aftermarket LPG kit is greener than a new diesel EU5 or EU6 Fiesta.

Oh and you can argue the same for EV. 'tis all rosy now, wait until later

I'm not a huge EV fan, but I don't have my head in the sand when it comes to burning fossil fuels. We're all going to change the way fuel our lives, or they're going to come to a premature end.

And even if it got half it would still be better than the best Derv today

These are the top 10 MOST economical cars that are on sale today. You'll notice that, A, the PHEV isn't on the most economical list, and B, 7 out of the 10 cars on the list are diesel. 2 are hybrids and 1 is petrol. Also in real world testing, all of the diesels on the list do higher MPG than the hybrids.

• Toyota Prius
• Ford Focus 1.5 TDCi
• Skoda Octavia 1.6 TDI
• Honda Civic 1.6 iDTEC
• Peugeot 208 1.5 BlueHDi
• Renault Clio dCi 90
• Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid
• Volkswagen Golf GTE
• Citroen Grand C4 Spacetourer BlueHDi 130
• Suzuki Celerio.

These are the facts.

 

[Henry_b]

Do you have the government approved test results to prove that claim.
LPG does produce a lot less particulates than an old EU 3 or 4 diesel true. However an EU 5 diesel produces so few particulates, that they're barely measurable, and an EU6 diesel produces no measurable particulates. Things have improved with diesels, to the point that they're just as clean as any other fuel.


Not true with an EU 6 diesel engine. Yes the diesel will produce NOX due to high combustion temperatures, but nothing like 120 times as much.


Dream on. There's no way that an old RR V8 with an aftermarket LPG kit is greener than a new diesel EU5 or EU6 Fiesta.


I'm not a huge EV fan, but I don't have my head in the sand when it comes to burning fossil fuels. We're all going to change the way fuel our lives, or they're going to come to a premature end.


These are the top 10 MOST economical cars that are on sale today. You'll notice that, A, the PHEV isn't on the most economical list, and B, 7 out of the 10 cars on theist are diesel. 2 are hybrids and 1 is petrol. Also in real world testing, all of the diesels on the list do higher MPG than the hybrids.

• Toyota Prius
• Ford Focus 1.5 TDCi
• Skoda Octavia 1.6 TDI
• Honda Civic 1.6 iDTEC
• Peugeot 208 1.5 BlueHDi
• Renault Clio dCi 90
• Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid
• Volkswagen Golf GTE
• Citroen Grand C4 Spacetourer BlueHDi 130
• Suzuki Celerio.

These are the facts.

https://www.drivelpg.co.uk/about-autogas/environmental-benefits/
pls read the above
I'll find the prinout when i'm at work and scan it..

As for my v8 being the equiv to a new car, i never said that i said and if you note " the equivalant fiesta" being around the same euro requirement.

The facts are above..

Mining these special batteries is no emissionless regime..

Try fitting a new engine with LPG then measure the emissions..

would love to see that..

Prolly be best to cycle to work and stop the production of cars to reduce manufacturing polutuon..

 

[Nodge68]

As for my v8 being the equiv to a new car, i never said that i said and if you note " the equivalant fiesta" being around the same euro requirement.

You didn't specify what your vehicle is, or how old. It could have come new off the forecourt last week, for I know.

I'm not saying that LPG isn't less green than petrol or diesel. But it's not as green as is once was in comparison to the latest emmision standards that all new vehicle have to comply with.

However if it keeps an old LR on the road, then I think is has a value.

Mining these special batteries is no emissionless regime

Processing Bauxite to make aluminium is much more environmentally damaging than extracting lithium salts from brine, which uses natural evaporation.

Spent lithium can also be reproduced readily easily so the overall impact on the environment is low, especially when compared to other metals in general use worldwide.

Try fitting a new engine with LPG then measure the emissions..

would love to see that

It would be interesting to see.

Prolly be best to cycle to work and stop the production of cars to reduce manufacturing polutuon.

Maybe, or at least E cycle to work.

 

[Henry_b]

We all pollute.
i'm guessing the equipment used isn't very green
I'll be happy when they make an EV FFRR with good looks and good range.. he.

Until then though..

Me old V8 stay for the future,

 

[Nodge68]

We all pollute

That we do.

i'm guessing the equipment used isn't very green

It's relatively new equipment I'm guessing, but will have some sort of environmental impact.

I'll be happy when they make an EV FFRR with good looks and good range.. he.

I'm surprised that LR haven't started making, or at least started designing an EV. They're not doing well at the moment, due to the uniformed demonisation of diesels.

Until then though..

Me old V8 stay for the future

Good for you.

 

[Henry_b]

That we do.

It's relatively new equipment I'm guessing, but will have some sort of environmental impact.

I'm surprised that LR haven't started making, or at least started designing an EV. They're not doing well at the moment, due to the uniformed demonisation of diesels.



Good for you.

A new EV RR is set to be realeased in 2031, but i hoope they don't go with the current design drawings!