TAY100060 TAY100050 whats the difference?

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Stanleysteamer

Stanleysteamer

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Full Member
Posts
41,222
Location
East Dorset
Hi All.
Am renewing the rear hub bearing on my 2000 Disco2 and the manufacturers sent me a front hub and bearing by mistake. Am I right in thinking they are interchangeable with the rears, as long as I get the seal from the shop? They are sending me one with no argument and I sort of thought they would have warned me if they were not interchangeable. What do you think? Before I try it out and make the part unreturnable.
 
Hi Roy, I didn't mention about the sensor lead because I had already thought of that. I am more worried about sizes, clearances, etc. In fact the front lead is longer as it goes into the engine bay before it connects whereas the rear one connects in the wheel arch. Too long is not a problem, too short, would be!

Also I was not sure where the o-ring went that did NOT come with the front hub but will hopefully come in the post today. Since I posted I have looked elsewhere on the forums and it seems the o-ring is an oil seal to stop back axle oil getting into and past the hub. If so, am I right in thinking that it just sits in behind the hub?

Confess I have not seen the old seal, but then I haven't looked too closely. Was more bothered that the half-shaft came out with the hub and I needed to reposition it back into the diff, which I managed to do without much fuss.

Will take the old hub off again in a minute and peer into the axle tube to see what I can see.
The hub was not leaking oil. I took it off because the local Land Rover garage (independent I think, although it's called "Bournemouth Land Rover")
said the three amigos were on because of a dodgy hub.
Wish me luck!
 
Knew one was longer than the other.
Do you have a copy of rave, lr workshop manual if not can be downloaded from a link on d2boys club web site .
In rear suspension it gives a step by step description with pictures of how to change rear hub and from reading o ring fits on hub.
 
Is there the "channel" on the front hub as to accept the o-ring which is needed on the rear?
where the arrow points to

Rear hub oring.jpg
 
Wow! Thanks guys for all the replies!
Roy, yes I do have a copy of RAVE and Haynes so getting it off and back on again will not be a huge problem.
Sierrafery, yes, the channel is there and to cut a long story short, the hub, is now back on I am driving it.
I checked out where the seal was supposed to go and then waited 2 days for it to arrive. I didn't want to unpack everything in case it needed to be returned.
So today I got started and discovered the following:
The bolts they sent were far too long and with long shanks so I had a choice, use the old bolts or cut more thread down the shanks to match the old ones then cut then ends off all four bolts. I reused the old ones.
The wire is a bit longer, not over much and it comes with all sorts of fittings on it. The one nearest the hub is fitted in reverse fashion so would not fit into the hole on the hub mount to protect it, so I took some plastic tube and cut it in a spiral, fitted it over the wire and through the hole, then taped over the spiral so it would keep everything in place. The fitting just before the connector was too big to go through the hole in the hub mount so I had to trim it a bit, then it still would not fit properly into the mount near the connection. So several cable ties were used to ensure the wire kept in place.
The big hub nut was fine, as was the seal.
Moral of the story, don't mess about, get the correct part, it is neater in the end.
However, it is now on and I have been driving about in it, but the three amigos are still on and I do not know how to get rid of them, short of going to a garage with a diagnostic tool.
Am I missing something? I had hoped that a few stop/starts, ignition on/offs would sort it.
Is it worth disconnecting the battery and then reconnecting it? Would that reboot the SLABS ECU? I read somewhere about a trick where you can switch off, put your foot on the brake, then move the autoshift through from P to 1 and back 4 or 5 times then switch back on. Guess what! Didn't work! (Where do people come up with this carp!)

So guys, I am hoping you have got some idea of how to get the 3 amigos to go away, without a Nanocom or any thing like. I bid on one on eBay but gave up when it got to £311, you can get them new for £390! And short of finding some waste ground or a friendly farmer's field to hack around on I have no idea if TC or ABS are working. So infuriating! Too old school to cope with the idea that replacing a faulty part is not enough to get the vehicle running properly once job done. I hate the idea I have to ask some computer's permission to use my vehicle!
Crossed fingers!
Cheers!
 
Thanks both. It is as I feared. What is more worrying is what you said Sierrafery, as it implies that I may not have cured it by changing the hub and sensor.
The original fault was "intermittent loss of signal" so they split and cleaned the sensor connection, (which I had already done and it wasn't dirty anyway, I had also tested the resistance of all the sensors and they were all nearly exactly the same and in the middle of the correct range.) Quote from the garage bill "We suspect the start of a faulty bearing sensor." So I changed the whole bearing hub as so much info says that just changing the sensor is a/ not necessarily as easy as it should be and b/ it may not correct the fault. But any intermittent fault is a pig to diagnose accurately. Maybe there is just a break or near break in the wire. I bowed to their superior knowledge and hoped for the best. I sincerely hope I've fixed it.
I'll have a good look at that scanner you pointed me at, it is half the price and I am not interested in a lot of the stuff Nanocom has on it. About the cost of 5 readings done by an independent, hmmmm!
I really do appreciate all your comments and help.
I remembered there is a guy not far away, a one-man-band who works out of a unit on a nearby industrial estate. No idea how good he is. He gave me a tiny bit of help once so I'll pop round and see him first before going and spending money in Bournemouth. Also traffic round here is horrendous at the moment so it can be a 1 hour's drive to go about 6 1/2 miles and see them.
At the same time BLR told me the air mass sensor was up the spout so I let them change it and sort that out with their computer. He asked me if I had noticed a drop off in performance, I told him I had changed that about 18 months ago, trying to get better fuel consumption. I had no idea it wasn't working, I just thought the fuel consuming fault was elsewhere. It cost a lot to get this done, diagnosing the 3 amigos, switching them off, finding the other fault and then changing the mass air flow sensor came to £242. The Air Mass meter alone came to £127 WITHOUT VAT. I leave you to judge whether I have been done! But then the one I bought cheaper 18 months ago obviously was not up to it. I know the official Land Rover part is about £170. (Must try and find the original receipt!) I have only driven it a tiny bit but I think I can feel a bit more urge and it is certainly smoother. The acid test will be to see if I can get better than 24 mpg.
Too busy until Monday but will get back to it then.
I'll keep you updated.
Cheers!
 
Right. Now, things have gone silly.
I changed the n/s/r hub, as I mentioned. Today I took it to a local 4x4 specialist, just to have the codes removed, as I thought. (I didn't go to him initially as he had moved premises and I had lost his number.)
And guess what, the codes indicated the problem was with the o/s/r! Completely the other side of the vehicle! He zapped the codes, I drove it about 25 yards and the 3 amigos returned. By the way, he is a one man band and plugged in the diagnostic tool right in front of me so I could see all the codes. We discussed this and he sold me a secondhand hub and half-shaft. Sensor still connected.
So, this is a bit of a pain, to say the least, to say nothing of the expense. But there is more to come.
Guess what again, the diagnostic tool also said the MAF, the new one, was not up to snuff. The guy, who builds and races Land Rovers told me that apparently MAF sensors can be like that and that when he fits a new one he tries a whole load until he gets the best one to suit any individual Land Rover.
Now this is a whole new world to me. Have any of you guys ever heard of this phenomenon?
My next step obviously is to remove the right (both "side" and I hope "correct") rear hub and half-shaft and replace it with the new/secondhand one. And I think I am going to order the diagnostic tool mentioned by Sierrafery, as it seems reasonably priced and I am fed up of not knowing what is going on in my cars electrical innards. If it comes quickly enough I'll use it to clear the codes for the sensor and see if that sorts it out once and for all. Even though the second guy is way cheaper, and he is just around the corner, getting codes read costs enough for me to think it is going to be worth my while.
As for the MAF, I have no idea. It is driving better, i.e. more smoothly and possibly quicker, but I have yet to do a brim-to-brim mpg test. So Is it possible to have degrees of "better" with MAF sensors? I thought they would either be good or bad.
Also, the second guy picked up a problem with the EGR valve, correctly as I have removed it and blanked off the vacuum pipe. Bournemouth Land Rover never mentioned that.
I am going to contact Bournemouth Land Rover and tell them about the hub, as I feel very justified in doing that, but I am not sure about the sensor, even though it cost such a packet. But it is true that I was nowhere near the operative when the diagnostic tool was used. But the bill states "£36 labour to replace Air Mass Meter, road test and check signal faults are responding". So why did the tool I saw show a fault and their's not? And why did the three amigos not come on for them, but came on about 250 yards down the road once it was driven away from them by us?
I am angry. I am despairing. And I feel like I am losing my way. I hate not being able to trust people.
Anyway, I hope you guys have some ideas, cos I am fresh out of them.
regards
Stanleysteamer
 
Thanks for your input Johnlad. I've ordered the Scantool now and will see if it makes any sense. The second guy never said anything about intermittent wiring fault but I'll have a look at the wiring and see if there are any obvious worn bits then see if I can check it with a continuity meter. It doesn't drive as if the MAF is disconnecting then reconnecting, and I have no idea if the second guy's diag tool could say "intermittent" or not. But it may not drive weirder, I can only say it is driving better than it was. Also, if there was nothing wrong with the first component then why would the first garage's tool say that there was no reading at all, then fit the new one, reset it, road test it and check signal faults are responding?
God do I hate electrics! It seems as if they are just a licence to print money for garages half the time, but then I may well be being hugely unfair. But then we have all heard of garages replacing component after component, at the customer's expense, to try and cure a fault.
I've decided not to change the other hub, but to go back to the first garage and get them to scan it in front of me, then see what they have to say.
Hey Ho!
 
Right, I think this is all over now. The second 4x4 specialist sold me a second-hand half-shaft and hub. My Scantool arrived this weekend. This a.m. it showed a fault or faults with the rear right sensor. I replaced the hub and half-shaft, cleared the codes, test drove the nuts off it, making the ABS work and the Traction control work. No more three amigos! So I am finally happy.
I can feel absolutely no play whatsoever in either of the two hubs I took off the truck. I am thinking it might just be sensors, but after reading everything I can find it seems taking them off and replacing them is a recipe for disaster.
My new testtool said nothing about the MAF although it did say something about the MAP. I think! It also said the main relay to the ACE was up the spout, but that may have been a historic code and I do not remember clearing it and trying it again. But at least a relay is easy to replace.
So I have made my peace with Bournemouth Land Rover. I think they made an honest mistake and at least I have got two new(ish) hubs. Incidentally, I have come to the conclusion that separating the hub from the flange is easier if you unscrew the bolts a bit then clout the heads of the bolts with a hammer, that frees it from the flange sufficient to get a pry bar in near the "ears" where you can finish off the job. DO jack up the side of the car you are working on good and high to minimise loss of rear axle oil! Others may well argue with me, but having done the job both ways, I think it is easier to loosen the axleshaft nut on the vehicle but to then take the hub and half-shaft out together to separate the hub from the shaft.
Thanks for all your advice lads. I think if you have a diagnostic tool it does save you money in the end. The Nanocom on ebay only had two bidders, me and the other guy. I let him have it in the end for £311. At least with my tool I can look at other Land Rover vehicles and Jaguars and if I want to download software for other vehicles it isn't too expensive. Cheers Sierrafery. I paid £195 but you can get it cheaper, you just need to check that it does come with the software you want.
Happy Christmas!
 
Landmark2 said:
Glad you're sorted.
Griff
Click to expand...
Unbelievably, I went off to Scotland for Christmas with the car completely rammed with stuff, (Christmas presents take up so much room!), so I left my Scantool behind, thinking it was all fixed.
But after about three days two of the three amigos came on, just as I was manoeuvering first thing on a cold Scottish morning. Swore, drove off and when stopped at traffic lights. Went through a cycle of switch off, key out, lock, unlock restart, and the lights went off. Stayed off all day of long drives.
Following moring, same thing except this time all three came on and could not be switched off without the tool. Swore again.
Got back home to Dorset and could not be ar5ed to do anything about it, as both ABS and traction control were still working. Last week, MOT upcoming, got the tool out and checked the codes. "Left rear wheel sensor signal intermittent. Left rear wheel sensor signal weak"

Food for thought. And makes me think BLR might have been correct in their initial reading of the codes.
Also makes me think this MUST be a fault between the sensor(s) and the ABS ECU.
This seems to imply the only way to really get to the bottom of this is going to be to check and or replace all the wire between at least both the rear sensors and the ABS unit. What a complete pain.
Has anyone else had to do this and if so do you have any advice about this?
Really would appreciate any advice you can give me.

Or could it be something else, i.e. maybe the plug to the ABS unit?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

J
 
Hi Sierrafery, long time no speak!
Right the situation is that the left rear hub is new, the right rear hub is secondhand.
Since fitted there had been no further fun with the 3 amigos,..... until we got to Scotland a week before Christmas. STUPIDLY I did not take my diagnostic kit, that I bought on your advice, and which is really good.

Once we got home, I really had too much else to do and everything seemed to be working fine, so, recently I read the codes. as, you will have read already, the fault was on the LEFT rear, the NEW hub. Nothing from the right rear, which is the second-hand one!

I erased the codes and took it for a thrash. Got all systems to work and there were no problems. The faults occurred on two successive days, earlyish in the morning, when it was cold and damp. Each time it was just after starting up and while maneuvering at really low speed to turn round prior to leaving the property.
So, the hub is new, the wire from the sensor is new, as far as the connection. The connection is clean and dry, yet this is being reported as the fault.

So there is no evidence it is a fault with the second-hand hub at all.
Am I right do you think, to assume there is an intermittent fault due to the wire contacting earth or maybe, just breaking and remaking a connection within the insulation? I have read elsewhere of hubs coming with insanely long wires, presumably to enable the fitter to fit the hub and then wire it all the way back to the SLABS unit.

Has anyone had any experience of this and if so, where in the wire did the fault occur, so I can save time when looking for the break.?
Looking forward to hearing from those in the know!
 
If the new hub was cheap aftermarket there are cases when they have 55 teeth instead 60 on the reluctor ring, quite common especially with Allmakes or cheapos from ebay or the sensor's wiring is fubar from the beginning... if you keep getting codes from the new hub make somehow and count the teeth through the senor's hole and if it's 60 replace the sensor in it...eventually swap the hubs from one side to another and if the fault goes with the hub then IMO you need a good one but if the fault stays on that side there is a wiring issue between the ECU and the connector.
 
sierrafery said:
If the new hub was cheap aftermarket there are cases when they have 55 teeth instead 60 on the reluctor ring, quite common especially with Allmakes or cheapos from ebay or the sensor's wiring is fubar from the beginning... if you keep getting codes from the new hub make somehow and count the teeth through the senor's hole and if it's 60 replace the sensor in it...eventually swap the hubs from one side to another and if the fault goes with the hub then IMO you need a good one but if the fault stays on that side there is a wiring issue between the ECU and the connector.
Click to expand...
Hi guy,
I cannot believe that anyone would make hubs with the wrong number of teeth on the reluctor ring, also, if there was an imbalance between the number of teeth on the reluctor rings on the two back wheels then surely the ABS or the traction control would be on ALL the time!? Unless the rest of the sensor is built to compensate somehow? (You can tell that I am not an electronic engineer.) I'll have a dig and see if I can find who I bought the hub from. OK, cost £65 from lr-trade-parts-uk. Not the dearest and not the cheapest.

In fact, since fitting the two hubs, the only three amigos I got were the ones two days running up in Ecosse, and never since. Anyway, as always, I kept the allegedly defective part, so one thing I could do is replace the new part with the old part. and see if the fault recurs. But a better, and easier, idea would be to do as you suggested and simply swap the two bearings and half-shafts over from side to side. (That would obviate my having to get new stake nuts.) I am insanely busy right now and there has been no recurrence of the 3 amigos so I won't be doing any thing in the short term, meanwhile I am hoping someone will come up with the places to start looking for wiring problems.

Bizarrely I did not get an email telling me you had replied, although it is all set on my profile, which is why I have been so slow in finding it and replying. Sorry.

Anyway I'll keep you posted.
 
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