Mk.1 - Were All Models 4wd?

[CaptainB]

Hi All,

First off, I'm not a mechanic - I know almost enough to be dangerous so please bear that in mind when I tell you my tale!

Just bought a 54 plate Mk.1 TD4 SE with only 87k on the clock. All seemed OK driving it so I bought it. I then decided to do an oil and filter change myself (almost gave up while trying to get the engine shield thing off to get to the sump plug!) and while under the car I noticed that the prop shaft was missing.

Having since read much more about the subject I can see that I bought the car armed with about 1/10th of the knowledge I should have had - hindsight...

I contacted the garage to get their take on it and they offered to get the missing parts from a scrapper and give them to me to fit myself! I contacted Trading Standards and long story short I am trying to return the car for a refund. However, I need to provide evidence that the bits are missing etc. and they have said I should get evidence that the Mk.1 was only ever sold as a 4wd and therefore my car has been modified.

I have Googled the heck out of it but I can't find a credible source anywhere that states that all Mk.1s were 4wd. Firstly, were they all 4wd? And secondly, if so can anyone point me in the right direction for some sort of documented proof please?

Cheers,
Cap'n

 

[jamesmartin]

Hi All,

First off, I'm not a mechanic - I know almost enough to be dangerous so please bear that in mind when I tell you my tale!

Just bought a 54 plate Mk.1 TD4 SE with only 87k on the clock. All seemed OK driving it so I bought it. I then decided to do an oil and filter change myself (almost gave up while trying to get the engine shield thing off to get to the sump plug!) and while under the car I noticed that the prop shaft was missing.

Having since read much more about the subject I can see that I bought the car armed with about 1/10th of the knowledge I should have had - hindsight...

I contacted the garage to get their take on it and they offered to get the missing parts from a scrapper and give them to me to fit myself! I contacted Trading Standards and long story short I am trying to return the car for a refund. However, I need to provide evidence that the bits are missing etc. and they have said I should get evidence that the Mk.1 was only ever sold as a 4wd and therefore my car has been modified.

I have Googled the heck out of it but I can't find a credible source anywhere that states that all Mk.1s were 4wd. Firstly, were they all 4wd? And secondly, if so can anyone point me in the right direction for some sort of documented proof please?

Cheers,
Cap'n

they all were awd, presumably the rear diff is still in place proving it

 

[Nodge68]

You've been stung unfortunately. If the car is worth sticking with and you want to take a chance that the IRD is ok, then try for a partial refund. This would give you the money to replace the missing components.

For the record. All FL1s left the factory as an AWD. If you look at the IRD and rear diff, you'll see the flanges where the propshafts should be attached.

 

[Rodeo Joe]

And all insurance companies regard the missing prop as a modification and some will refuse to touch it.

 

[CaptainB]

they all were awd, presumably the rear diff is still in place proving it

Yeah, the diff is still there and it's quite clear (even to me!) that there are parts missing. It was just that Trading Standards said I should try and obtain documented proof that they were all AWD/4WD etc.

You've been stung unfortunately. If the car is worth sticking with and you want to take a chance that the IRD is ok, then try for a partial refund. This would give you the money to replace the missing components.

For the record. All FL1s left the factory as an AWD. If you look at the IRD and rear diff, you'll see the flanges where the propshafts should be attached.

The car 'seems' pretty good otherwise but I do fear that if I persue them and get them to cough up for the prop shafts and VCU only to then find that the IRD or diff is knackered I am in for a load more pain and misery. I was initially over the moon with the car and loved having a car that I don't have to be precious about but this has left a bitter taste in my mouth and I'll be trying to get them to refund me for it. At the moment it looks like I may have a fight on my hands but it appears that I do have the law on my side, could have just done without the hassle though!

And all insurance companies regard the missing prop as a modification and some will refuse to touch it.

That's my biggest iminent concern. Until I have spoken to them I think I'll avoid driving it and use the wife's Evoque - hard times

 

[Nodge68]

Presumably LR can supply the original build sheet, proving your particular FL1 left the factory as an AWD.

In my experience, finding a good FL1 is difficult to do. So if it were me, I'd be tempted to get a partial refund, which hopefully cover the cost of replacing the missing components and repair(if needed) the IRD.

However if you're just wanting to get your money back, then that's your choice and the law is on your side for that.

 

[GrumpyGel]

There are a couple of recent threads about replacing missing prop shafts. They will tell you what you need to know about it and the likely pit falls of doing this...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/second-hand-prop-shaft.338509/

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/2004-freelander-td4-3dr.338669/

 

[Hippo]

The Freelander 1 is considered permanent 4x4 with full time transmission as per the sales brochure which yer can get an original printed copy of ont eb ay.

 

[CaptainB]

Thanks for all the great info guys, much appreciated.

I kept wavering as to whether or not to return the car or just to push the garage for replacement parts etc. When I woke up this morning I made the decision to persue the refund (the garage aren't playing ball but we'll see how that pans out) and perhaps look at spending the extra and getting a FL2 if I can't find a really decent FL1.

 

[Colthebrummie]

Getting a refund may depend on how much you paid for the car. If you got it for tuppence, the seller would say the price reflects the condition.

Col

 

[Geodark]

What parts has he offered you? The shaft could have been removed just for an issue with the VCU, but then again it could have fully fubar'd the IRD. Send it back I reckon.

 

[Interceptorxj]

Getting a refund may depend on how much you paid for the car. If you got it for tuppence, the seller would say the price reflects the condition.

Col

I wouldn't have thought how much he paid would make a blind bit of difference to the legalities , he bought a 4 wheel drive car that isn't a 4 wheel drive car and therefore it was missold irrespective of price paid surely?

 

[Colthebrummie]

I wouldn't have thought how much he paid would make a blind bit of difference to the legalities , he bought a 4 wheel drive car that isn't a 4 wheel drive car and therefore it was missold irrespective of price paid surely?

Depends on the wording the seller used in the ad. If he/she didn't claim it to be a 4x4 the case for a refund will be weakened. The original post implies the car was bought from a garage so I would think a 3 month warranty is available.

Col

 

[CaptainB]

Apologies for not updating for a while. Christmas, a house move and kids changes of schools etc meant that this took a back seat for a while.

I decided in the end to persue the garage for a full refund. Sent various letters via RM Signed For and Tracked but none were ever recieved. Began to prepare for small claims proceedings and found out yesterday that the company has vanished! Website has gone, Auto Trader listings removed, phones gone dead etc. Companies House search shows that the company has been struck off. Complete dead end - valuable lessons learned!

Moving on... I have decided to buy the parts and fit them myself. I found this on Ebay and the seller has offered to include all the fixings etc for £185. He said that the bearings are shot so I presume I need this as well? Obviously I am faced with the possibility that the IRD or rear diff is cactus but, assuming it isn't, is this all I need to restore my hippo to 4WD? Could I buy the parts cheaper elsewhere (and still be reasonably assured that they will be in good order) or does this look like a good deal?

 

[Nodge68]

I found this on Ebay and the seller has offered to include all the fixings etc for £185. He said that the bearings are shot so I presume I need this as well?

You can do better than that price wise.

You can often get propshafts individually for £25 each, which leaves a good amount spare for an old VCU, which you can then get reconditioned correctly.

 

[GrumpyGel]

+1 in this /\

You know the bearings are shot and need replacement, and you can almost guarantee the VCU will be as well. So really you just want a cheap as chips set because the bearings and VCU are going to be replaced anyway. There are also 3 UJs and a CV joint in the setup, so its worth buying one you can see first to make sure there's no slap in them or split boot.

 

[rob_bell]

Don't buy the bearings you've highlighted in your post. Only use GKN OEM bearings, as most other stuff disintegrates after literally a couple of months' of use

What I'd do next is to check the condition of the IRD.

The first step here is to change the IRD oil.
If a foul, nasty black fluid comes out, you're in luck - that is just well-worn IRD oil. Top up with fresh, and re-fit the prop shaft and wonder why it was removed in the first place.

If a metallic grey fluid comes out, the internal bearings are shot. The IRD will require a rebuild. Or buy a good second hand one. Or buy a reconditioned one.

 

[CaptainB]

+1 in this /\

You know the bearings are shot and need replacement, and you can almost guarantee the VCU will be as well. So really you just want a cheap as chips set because the bearings and VCU are going to be replaced anyway. There are also 3 UJs and a CV joint in the setup, so its worth buying one you can see first to make sure there's no slap in them or split boot.

OK, sounds like good advice, thank you.

Don't buy the bearings you've highlighted in your post. Only use GKN OEM bearings, as most other stuff disintegrates after literally a couple of months' of use

What I'd do next is to check the condition of the IRD.

The first step here is to change the IRD oil.
If a foul, nasty black fluid comes out, you're in luck - that is just well-worn IRD oil. Top up with fresh, and re-fit the prop shaft and wonder why it was removed in the first place.

If a metallic grey fluid comes out, the internal bearings are shot. The IRD will require a rebuild. Or buy a good second hand one. Or buy a reconditioned one.

The Haynes manual recommends Texaco S5 75W/90 for the IRD. In the interest if getting the job done this weekend will any 75w/90 gear oil be suitable? And what quantity do I need, can't find quoted that in Haynes?

Given the price difference between the cheapo bearings and the ones listed on sites like Bell Engineering I figured that there must be a difference in quality. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[GrumpyGel]

I definitely didn't put Texaco oil in my IRD, I think it was Penrite. I forget now, does it need to be 'MTF' or is that just the gearbox, they were different oils.

 

[Alex1000]

Jumpling in here. Is there any other way to test the ird if your buying a fl1 with the props removed. Also if it drives el mono with no noises or bangs from the diff, is the diff okay, or cant you tell untill vcu and shafts are refitted.