Modus Operandi for rescues ...

[dieseldog69]

I'm 2 decades on heavy plant, can drive a 360 with my eyes shut, us good un's are all being trained up on the latest GPS engineer free machine control systems, it used to be "can you drive it?" "Yeah, I'll give it a go" "good now pizz off and start moving muck", before Christmas we had to do a skills test to see what future training we need in the new year, we were asked to do a method statement and risk assessment for digging a footing, digging service risers in the foot path and lifting pre-cast concrete floor beams in to place with the 360, oh deep joy, I aced it as I expected, having been a manager in waste transfer from early 2006 to late 2008 and doing these very tasks for every single activity undertaken on site, from sweeping the canteen floor to operating the rotating selector grab on a 360 or driving the concrete crusher.

All good fun but it really makes you think about the task in hand and every detail involved with getting the job done safely and efficiently.

 

[doriz]

Once upon a time as part of the duties in the fire station we used to clean our own windows, and some where above head height. Anyway, I'm sure you can guess the rest - the windows just stay dirty, worlds gone bonkers.

 

[neilly]

I'm 2 decades on heavy plant, can drive a 360 with my eyes shut, us good un's are all being trained up on the latest GPS engineer free machine control systems, it used to be "can you drive it?" "Yeah, I'll give it a go" "good now pizz off and start moving muck", before Christmas we had to do a skills test to see what future training we need in the new year, we were asked to do a method statement and risk assessment for digging a footing, digging service risers in the foot path and lifting pre-cast concrete floor beams in to place with the 360, oh deep joy, I aced it as I expected, having been a manager in waste transfer from early 2006 to late 2008 and doing these very tasks for every single activity undertaken on site, from sweeping the canteen floor to operating the rotating selector grab on a 360 or driving the concrete crusher.

All good fun but it really makes you think about the task in hand and every detail involved with getting the job done safely and efficiently.

Glad to see you are so humble as well......................LOL.


Cheers

 

[allan downes]

Yes alot aswell is about common sense too .like on the night i was in the landy behind the wheel with my winch attached to brians recovery points. And to the rear to the vehicle helping me with pulling from the rear and when mine was going off to the right near the drop we put ground anchors to the far left and just used my winch to pull me clear. .because if i had driven i could of slid futher. So it was well sorted. Bit of like right stop now pull the other one then go on a bit keeping it steady. Slow but positive movement. Always in control

 

[Balbas]

A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away... - no, wait!) I worked with lifting kit. It's alarming to see the damage it can do when it all goes horribly wrong.

It's a really really dull subject and people get all het up about H&S nazis, but the truth is that people die or suffer life altering injuries when lifting goes wrong. Hence the inspection regime on lifting tackle.

In essence winching is lifting to all intents and purposes. Would I be happy using a winch to self recover or recover a mate? Hell yes (and I have done). Would I be content to use a winch in an unfamiliar environment to recover a stranger? Without liability insurance in place I'm afraid the answer is 'hell no'. Call me boring, but I wouldn't like to lose my house because I'd snapped a winch cable and taken some poor buggers legs off...

I'm the type of bloke that dives in and helps others (often to my detriment), but as I get older I'm slowly learning that people *won't* take responsibility for their own actions and it's often 'someone else's fault' regardless of the truth of the matter.

I like the idea of LZIR - I will sign up when my Disco is back from its surgery - but perhaps it should be limited to non recovery scenarios only? Certainly for non forum members. If out in the boonies let the Mountain Rescue deal with the safety aspects would be my advice (although I would put caveats on that too, but there you go).

 

[dieseldog69]

Glad to see you are so humble as well......................LOL.


Cheers

I'm not one to brag or anything like that lol

We've all lived a life as a professional something or other, some jobs interlink with our hobbies more than others.

 

[dieseldog69]

A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away... - no, wait!) I worked with lifting kit. It's alarming to see the damage it can do when it all goes horribly wrong.

It's a really really dull subject and people get all het up about H&S nazis, but the truth is that people die or suffer life altering injuries when lifting goes wrong. Hence the inspection regime on lifting tackle.

In essence winching is lifting to all intents and purposes. Would I be happy using a winch to self recover or recover a mate? Hell yes (and I have done). Would I be content to use a winch in an unfamiliar environment to recover a stranger? Without liability insurance in place I'm afraid the answer is 'hell no'. Call me boring, but I wouldn't like to lose my house because I'd snapped a winch cable and taken some poor buggers legs off...

I'm the type of bloke that dives in and helps others (often to my detriment), but as I get older I'm slowly learning that people *won't* take responsibility for their own actions and it's often 'someone else's fault' regardless of the truth of the matter.

I like the idea of LZIR - I will sign up when my Disco is back from its surgery - but perhaps it should be limited to non recovery scenarios only? Certainly for non forum members. If out in the boonies let the Mountain Rescue deal with the safety aspects would be my advice (although I would put caveats on that too, but there you go).

Know exactly what you mean, I am all for a$$ covering and the recording of the whole event from rocking up at location to having a brew and a smoke before we part company and head off home.

Responsibility for damages is something that I would want clearly discussed with recoveree and recorded for my own sake, although I can always play the race card should they get all silly about a bit of paint on the bumper lol

 

[Paul D]

That's what LZIR is about .. some can recover a vehicle, some can provide a warm, relatively safe environment for people, while others can maybe do other stuff. Not all of us are gung-ho heroes and don't need to be. Working together safely is the aim, with the recovery being secondary. No point coming home injured or working beyond your capacity.

Ultimately it's Your choice ...

 

[allan downes]

A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away... - no, wait!) I worked with lifting kit. It's alarming to see the damage it can do when it all goes horribly wrong.

It's a really really dull subject and people get all het up about H&S nazis, but the truth is that people die or suffer life altering injuries when lifting goes wrong. Hence the inspection regime on lifting tackle.

In essence winching is lifting to all intents and purposes. Would I be happy using a winch to self recover or recover a mate? Hell yes (and I have done). Would I be content to use a winch in an unfamiliar environment to recover a stranger? Without liability insurance in place I'm afraid the answer is 'hell no'. Call me boring, but I wouldn't like to lose my house because I'd snapped a winch cable and taken some poor buggers legs off...

I'm the type of bloke that dives in and helps others (often to my detriment), but as I get older I'm slowly learning that people *won't* take responsibility for their own actions and it's often 'someone else's fault' regardless of the truth of the matter.

I like the idea of LZIR - I will sign up when my Disco is back from its surgery - but perhaps it should be limited to non recovery scenarios only? Certainly for non forum members. If out in the boonies let the Mountain Rescue deal with the safety aspects would be my advice (although I would put caveats on that too, but there you go).

thats why i recommend the dyneema bowrope like i have its alot lighter and its safer

 

[Turboman]

All that to dig an ole, fooking ell I've gone boss eyed

Not as boss eyed as the last swing shovel driver I saw try to dig a hole in a hurry!

A swing shovel was sent by a local plant hire company to dig some duck ponds, in marshy ground on a neighbours farm.
The driver was quite inexperienced, a youngish chap, late twenties, although he did have all the relevant certificates.
My neighbour talked him through the job, and warned him that the ground was very soft, and we had had to recover his own tractor several times during other operations.
The lad started to dig the pits, but the vibration of the working machine caused the ground to liquefy under him, and the machine sank in the ground, too deep to drive out.
It was a winters day, and only a few hours of light. The plant hire operator sent down another swing shovel, and a 150 horse winch tractor. The two of them together managed to recover the first swing shovel, with about a half hours daylight remaining.
The pit where the first digger had been stuck filled with water overnight, which would have caused thousands of pounds worth of damage to the digger if it had still been there.

The plant hire contractor considered sacking the driver, but as no-one had been hurt, and the digger was saved, although at considerable expense, he decided to let the lad off with a warning, and he kept his job.

The pits, which were never dug as large as intended, grew over in a few years, so the intended purpose of duck flighting was never realised.

I think with hindsight, everyone wishes the job had never been undertaken in the first place.

 

[doriz]

some can recover a vehicle, some can provide a warm, relatively safe environment for people

Hopefully no one will turn up in a full Barbour Stockman jacket ready to flash their help.

 

[Bobsticle]

Well done peeps.
Another simple helping hand service ruined.

There’s always someone with a tragic story. Always someone with a certificate in interfering and always lots of someones with ever increasingly dramatic scenarios.

I’d just like to offer my condolences to the beginning of the end for LZIR.

It isn’t broke ffs so dunt need fixing but people just can’t help themselves can they.

Cue the what iffers................

 

[Turboman]

Well done peeps.
Another simple helping hand service ruined.

There’s always someone with a tragic story. Always someone with a certificate in interfering and always lots of someones with ever increasingly dramatic scenarios.

I’d just like to offer my condolences to the beginning of the end for LZIR.

It isn’t broke ffs so dunt need fixing but people just can’t help themselves can they.

Cue the what iffers................

Maybe wait until the new guidelines appear before jumping to conclusions?

Reviewing things, and changing them if necessary, is often a good thing in practice.

 

[private penguin]

I think we are coming from the same place, I work in construction and before I put a 360 to work I would need to do the following: risk assessment for every task the machine would do, this includes separate assessents for each element of work, delivery, moving, actual digging, any lifting etc. The machine would be delivered on a approved lorry, from an approved supplier with a machine to our approval specification. Once arrive the machine would need to be checked for suitability by me. The machine would also be expected to have a daily check (completed daily funny enough) before working. The machine would require a more thorough check as a PDI or weekly check by the hire company as well as the 6 month and yearly certs. The driver would be suitably qualified, CPCS or similar before arrival. This would then be checked by me. The driver would need an induction. Then a task brief and going through the risk assessment. The driver would then have an on site assessent regardless if how qualified he(or she) is. I usually get them to change buckets and move them about. The quick hitch (getting technical now) would also need to be of an approved type with the operator familiar and trained on it. If lifting again there would be a lift plan written and briefed, risk assessent and inspection of lifting equipment with various responsibilities dished out-lift supervisor, slinger etc. Of course there would also be the daily restart briefing...
Once all this is complete then the work can start. This is the environment I'm coming from, not saying it's right but even with that lot in place people get hurt or killed. Obviously we cant match that.

And this is presumably why big building projects, road works, etc take so bloody long.

How many deaths / injuries are actually prevented by writing all this stuff down rather than using common sense?

Or is the paperwork just an exercise to keep the insurance companies happy?

Yes - SOPs and RA's have their place - but there is such a thing as "over the top".

We hired a mini digger last year - so not to the same sort of scale that you would use, but a lot of the principals were the same. We did a risk assessment:

- People only to use it once they've had a familiarisation
- People not to stand around close to it while in operation
- Dont dig where the cones have been put over the septic tank

The rest we left to common sense. 5 of us drove it during the weekend - mostly myself and a guy who fixes the things for a living. There were no accidents, and the closest we got to a near miss was driving the track over a manhole and the manhole sliding because it wasn't properly bedded in.

If we'd hired a paid contractor they'd have been faffing around with elf n safety, insisting the driver wore a hi vis, and wanting a detailed plan rather than making the job up as we went along.

 

[private penguin]

Well done peeps.
Another simple helping hand service ruined.

There’s always someone with a tragic story. Always someone with a certificate in interfering and always lots of someones with ever increasingly dramatic scenarios.

I’d just like to offer my condolences to the beginning of the end for LZIR.

It isn’t broke ffs so dunt need fixing but people just can’t help themselves can they.

Cue the what iffers................

We may disagree on driving speeds and cars - but i think i agree with you here.

This is a voluntary service - individuals offering help. Yes there is some easy stuff we can do to make it a bit safer and that's no bad thing, but if we were to go down the route of having to write risk assessments before going out (and i'm pretty sure that's not what MHM and BB are going to come up with!) the i'd be out of here as i'm sure would many others.

We could faff around with "what if's" all day - or could get on with a job using common sense.

 

[Turboman]

And this is presumably why big building projects, road works, etc take so bloody long.

How many deaths / injuries are actually prevented by writing all this stuff down rather than using common sense?

Or is the paperwork just an exercise to keep the insurance companies happy?

Yes - SOPs and RA's have their place - but there is such a thing as "over the top".

We hired a mini digger last year - so not to the same sort of scale that you would use, but a lot of the principals were the same. We did a risk assessment:

- People only to use it once they've had a familiarisation
- People not to stand around close to it while in operation
- Dont dig where the cones have been put over the septic tank

The rest we left to common sense. 5 of us drove it during the weekend - mostly myself and a guy who fixes the things for a living. There were no accidents, and the closest we got to a near miss was driving the track over a manhole and the manhole sliding because it wasn't properly bedded in.

If we'd hired a paid contractor they'd have been faffing around with elf n safety, insisting the driver wore a hi vis, and wanting a detailed plan rather than making the job up as we went along.

Not quite sure what you are complaining about?

You followed good practice, the job went well, for a reasonable cost. There was one minor incident, which you have noted, understood the reason for, and will ensure does not happen again, if you do a similar job again.

That is what should happen. Following best practice, and learning from experience. Which is what everyone is advocating.

 

[private penguin]

Not quite sure what you are complaining about?

You followed good practice, the job went well, for a reasonable cost. There was one minor incident, which you have noted, understood the reason for, and will ensure does not happen again, if you do a similar job again.

That is what should happen. Following best practice, and learning from experience. Which is what everyone is advocating.

I'm not complaining. I'm making the point that sometimes a very quick, mental, assessment of risk and getting on with the job using common sense is all thats needed. Not reams and reams of paperwork, long briefings about stuff people already know, etc before the job can commence.

In one day we shifted 30 tonnes of motorway planings, extended a car park, resurfaced the existing car park, dug 2 land drains and took some tree stumps out.

There's some here that would say we should have left it to the professionals... but no-one got hurt, the job got done, and using volunteer labour, sweet talking the hire company, and having a good deal on the motorway planings, we got the whole job done for about £300 including materials, lunch, diesel, etc.

 

[DanClarke]

A lot of activity in this thread for 1 LZIR outing.
If it had not occurred, would the various views being expressed have seen the light of day?
At the outset the requester was economical with the truth it seems and this put well-intention-ed LZIR stalwarts at some personal risk to themselves and their motors.
But, the fact remains that everyone is smart enough to know after (or even before) their initial attempt at rescue when to say "NO" and to advise that paid recovery contractors should be engaged.
Everything else it appears to me is really expressing some anger and frustration at being somewhat "duped" by the requester of LZIR assistance.
Why can't we leave it at that? A better M.O. that asks a few more questions before anyone swings into action is not a bad idea (IMHO) and a picture of the recovery scene and its surroundings might prevent a false-start.
If its a real emergency, the requester should be dialling 999, not opening a thread on this site. So, we are not a 4th Emergency service, let's start from there?
Just my thoughts. of course.

 

[Turboman]

I'm not complaining. I'm making the point that sometimes a very quick, mental, assessment of risk and getting on with the job using common sense is all thats needed. Not reams and reams of paperwork, long briefings about stuff people already know, etc before the job can commence.

In one day we shifted 30 tonnes of motorway planings, extended a car park, resurfaced the existing car park, dug 2 land drains and took some tree stumps out.

There's some here that would say we should have left it to the professionals... but no-one got hurt, the job got done, and using volunteer labour, sweet talking the hire company, and having a good deal on the motorway planings, we got the whole job done for about £300 including materials, lunch, diesel, etc.

On small jobs, a mental assessment is good enough. And that is what we have done on the farm for many years, and things have gone safely, and no-one has been hurt.
On a very large job, with hundreds or thousands of workers involved, a written assessment is needed, so everyone can keep track of what has been said, and decided.
The idea that major road works and so on were ever quick and cheap is a myth. There were motorway works around Bristle for the first 30 years of my motoring life. I know, I have regularly used those roads. The last few years they seem to have decided that the roads around there are as good as they can get them, so it has gone away.

A lot of activity in this thread for 1 LZIR outing.
If it had not occurred, would the various views being expressed have seen the light of day?
At the outset the requester was economical with the truth it seems and this put well-intention-ed LZIR stalwarts at some personal risk to themselves and their motors.
But, the fact remains that everyone is smart enough to know after (or even before) their initial attempt at rescue when to say "NO" and to advise that paid recovery contractors should be engaged.
Everything else it appears to me is really expressing some anger and frustration at being somewhat "duped" by the requester of LZIR assistance.
Why can't we leave it at that? A better M.O. that asks a few more questions before anyone swings into action is not a bad idea (IMHO) and a picture of the recovery scene and its surroundings might prevent a false-start.
If its a real emergency, the requester should be dialling 999, not opening a thread on this site. So, we are not a 4th Emergency service, let's start from there?
Just my thoughts. of course.

I think you are misunderstanding people's concerns. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people should not turn out.
What most are suggesting is that a system be put in place to ensure, within reason, that what the person who requests a rescue is telling the truth about the circumstances they, or their vehicle are actually in at the time.

 

[allan downes]

I have to say the lzir is good but it was abused. And this guy just joined to get rescued. And did not say the truth. .would you feel the same if a. It had been alot worse like if me and brian had to leave the vehicles up there a night. Would you feel safe leaving your pride and joy on a mountain all night. I wouldnt. And for the fact im pritty sensible. But a simple winch pull should do it. Wasn t the truth. Was it. So. We were put in that position and i dont blame anyone off this site. Every one was great. And it just need tweaking.