Starter fried I think...

[Hard-Drive]

First sign of trouble was a few weeks ago. Starting from cold, a click from a relay behind the dash but nothing else. Eventually after many tries and clicks the starter turned and it started. Engine is a Disco 200Tdi in a Defender by the way.

Today I started it...no issues, but for some reason as I drove the the little guy off to the childminder, I noticed that the handbrake warning light was on. This has never worked...never seen it lit. When I stopped, and turned the ignition off, I heard a strange whirring noise under the bonnet for a secodn or two, accompanied by a frying electrics smell and for some reason the glowplugs/choke light staying lit on the dash, even with the ignition off.

AA man turned up...happens to be my mate, my ex next door neighbour and ex Disco V8 owner...he did a few tests and said that 12V is getting to the starter solenoid etc, and he thinks the starter motor must be fried. He said it could be that the starter was remaining engaged (although it didn't drive any differently) and some of the dashboard Christmas tree lights could be because the starter was (I forget the exact term) "feeding back" through the system.

Anyway, we bump started it, got it home and it's in my garage. I have got a new starter for it, however before I fit it is there any danger it could be anything else or the new starter will get fried too?

Sodding ungrateful truck...to sort out the crappy conversion job someone has done on her before, I just yesterday lavished a not inconsiderable sum of cash on a whole new Steve Parker intake and full exhaust system, arriving tomorrow, and that's the thanks she gives me. And she's obviously forgotten about the bloody brand new complete Exmoor interior including heated leather in the front that she got last week! Bloody Land Rovers!

 

[Marmaduke]

Can't help with your electrics but the 'hand brake light' can also be a warning light for low brake fluid, it certainly is on mine ('88 90)

 

[boguing]

It'd be handy to know which year it is, and also to know if the low brake fluid light is supposed to come on as a system test when you first switch on. If it is meant to, I'm wondering if your ignition switch is dying. It would match all the other symptoms.

 

[Hard-Drive]

Cheers for the help guys. The 110 is 1986, and I've never seen the brake warning light ever light up before. And certainly the orange glow plug light shouldn't be on when the ignition is switched off!

Very good point though that it might be a low fluid light, I'd not thought of that. However once it had done it's smoking/burning thing, and I just drove it home after bump starting it, everything worked exactly as it should in terms of dash lights...just nothing from the starter motor.

I doubt the ignition switch is faulty...my AA mate said that there was 12v going to the starter solenoid no problem...however I'm hopeless at electrics!

 

[Flossie]

There is no relay behind the dash for the starter.
Someone may have fitted a relay, timed or normal type, for the glow plugs.
I've done that because the ign switch is barely able to handle the heavy load of the glow plugs. It does sound as if the ign switch has maybe over heated and even melted causing circuits to be live when they shouldn't be.
Bit of a bugger to get at but it's held on to the rear of the key lgn barral by 2 little screws. Quite cheap new.
Make a note of where the wires go before you pull them off.

 

[boguing]

The brake light is supposed to flash when you turn the key to 'run' in order to test that the bulb and circuit are working. The glow plug light is supposed to come on when you turn the key to 'heater plugs'. But you hadn't turned the key.

The brake light didn't work previously, and the bulb won't have repaired itself. And now it does work when you turn the key. The glow plug light doesn't turn off when you turn the key. A motor was running when it shouldn't be - possibly the starter - but it shouldn't be running with the key away from the start position.

You might have a poltergeist, or maybe a short behind the dash. What you definitely do have is greater faith in Landy ignition switches than I have!

 

[Marmaduke]

My brake light never comes on unless the fluid is low. 1988 90

 

[Hard-Drive]

Well, it's not gone well tonight...

So, exhaust off so I could get to the starter and off it came. However, getting it out is a nightmare (remember it's a Disco engine). It's just too big to get down between the chassis and the engine block (we're talking mm here, but it just won't go) so the only way out is out the top but the turbo is in the way. OK, turbo off then...first stud...SNAP. At that point it was tools down.

I'll try some heat on it first next time. However I guess I'm going to need turbo gaskets, (found those) and the studs/nuts (although I don't have a part number...can anyone help). Why the flying **** does this have to happen to me just before Christmas when I needed the vehicle but getting parts will be impossible?

I can confirm that the starter is indeed fried. There's an area of huge localised heat at the forward end of the starter body...all the paint has burned away. I really don't want to do this job again so I will follow the advice above and change the ignition switch. I've ordered a PRC2735, which is the correct one for the age of my vehicle, originally a 2.5. Hopefully nothing special needed for the Tdi...

Hmmmm...thinks...as the starter clearance is oh so close, I might just take the grinder under the vehicle and have a nibble at the ally casing of the motor. It's just to big around where the stud/bolt holes to mount it are. If I can get it out after "modification", I'll do the same on the new one I already have. Let's face it a few mm of ally isn't going to really matter here, and if I one day end up fulfilling my dream and going to Morocco or similar, I want to be able to get the motor out without dismantling the engine!

 

[tottot]

Freeing engine mounts and lifting/moving motor on trolly jack may help.

 

[Flossie]

You plum
If you had asked....
Remove engine mount nut and jack up the engine until the stud is clear then a slight pry between block and chassis rail to shift the lump over a tad and it will drop down and out.

 

[Flossie]

Tottot types quicker than me..

 

[tottot]

Am only one finger quick.

 

[Flossie]

Me too but I don't know where all the letters an stuff are yet.

 

[Doo]

Once had a Vx Cavalier 2.0 where the ignition barrel wore out and the return spring stopped working. This meant when I turned to engage starter, it wouldn't stop spinning til I turned the key back a bit.

Wife took the car & forgot to turn the key back which meant the motor stayed engaged and as she drove, revving the engine made the starter spin much faster than it was intended to, along with the starter drawing all the current flattening the battery.

I replaced all of this, but not long later, I was driving along when the cab filled with acrid burning and the lights went out, wipers stopped and it was black dark & ****ing rain AND I was going 70mph at the time. Turned out the extra load placed on the wiring at the time had heated the main wiring from the battery to the ignition switch, causing the plastic coating to harden. It started flaking off and this particular night, it started chafing against the steering column mounting brackets....

What I am saying is, check it all over with a fine tooth comb or ot could get ugly somewhere down the line

 

[Marmaduke]

Unfortunately this is a common problem with a discovery 200tdi into a defender, not that it's any consolidation but you don't get the clearance issues with a 300

What stud do you need? Turbo to manifold or manifold to cylinder head?

 

[zeaphod]

Unfortunately this is a common problem with a discovery 200tdi into a defender, not that it's any consolidation but you don't get the clearance issues with a 300

What stud do you need? Turbo to manifold or manifold to cylinder head?

When fitted in a Discovery, there's a heat shield protecting the starter, often omitted from conversions. I'd fit one at some stage once you get back on the road. Thin alloy sheet from bnq works. Easiest to take the wing off first.

 

[Hard-Drive]

Cheers guys, really appreciate the help.

The broken stud is turbo to manifold. Sodding thing, I started to undo it and the whole stud was turning (I checked as I could see both ends) until suddenly "bang". There's a few threads proud of the turbo so I may get a nut on it...or TBH it may even be OK temporarily on 3 studs. Access is pretty good so I reckon I can get a drill in there and remove the old stud if I can't get a nut on.

That's a very good shout on the engine mounts. I'll try that tonight. It really is very close indeed...I removed the earth strap and some of the other gubbins in the way anyway.

Good shout on the heat shield Zeaphod. I know you are doing a good job on yours...any pics of the shield? I am trying to sort out the bodges on mine at the moment. So in many ways the timing for this to happen wasn't too bad...the old cobbled together exhaust was hilarious...one of the joins internally looks like a rifle bullet through a car door...and I reckon it's down to about 1" bore. Should breathe a lot easier with the new full system on it! And I've had been annoyed if the new exhuast went on then I had to take it straight off again!!

 

[zeaphod]

Sounds like you will have a much better Landy at the end of this Hard-Drive - pity about the timing. I've been doing a couple of hours every night in the rain in time to get mine on the road for Xmas - no fun at all. The heat shield was made of a sheet of thin dimpled alloy from B & Q: http://www.diy.com/departments/aluminium-panel-l500mm-w500mm-t1mm/256625_BQ.prd
It's really easy to bend and cut - I used a Stanley knife. It's bolted to a frame around the starter that held the original heat shield. It does mean the clutch pipe must be moved further right (looking from the front) on the footwell, rather than inside the engine side of it. Better access to it that way too. Make sure the heat shield can't touch the main starter battery terminal - for obvious reasons.
Here's a piccy of it in position - you can see how close the manifold and downpipe are to the starter.

 

[Hard-Drive]

Nice one Zeaphod, thanks for posting. Looks good!

That turbo mount stud visible on the pic...that's the one that broke :-(

 

[zeaphod]

Oh arse - at least it's accessible, hopefully you can get the old one out. Getting the rear nuts off was a real PITA, I ended up with a hammer and chisel to get the lower one started. Who designs a manifold/turbo combo with too little space to get a ring spanner on the nut??