Mystery freelander TD4 idle issue

[gstuart]

I doesn't control Nox output without EGR and it cannot fail an MOT as there is no Nox test in the MOT only a smoke test.

thks warmers am not trying to cause any issues with anyone but just trying to learn

 

[Nodge68]

am going to ask a daft question please where is the air throttle on a Diesel engine

There isn't one Gary, well not on a TD4 anyway. Some modern diesels do have butterfly valves, similar to a petrol engine throttle, but it performs a different function.

 

[gstuart]

There isn't one Gary, well not on a TD4 anyway. Some modern diesels do have butterfly valves, similar to a petrol engine throttle, but it performs a different function.

been abit of a doughnut as diesels run on compression , sorry being dense

 

[Nodge68]

been abit of a doughnut as diesels run on compression , sorry being dense

It's not being dense if you don't know Gary
A diesel engine used to be the simplest of engines. Not anymore though.

 

[gstuart]

It's not being dense if you don't know Gary
A diesel engine used to be the simplest of engines. Not anymore though.

been spending time funny enough reading of Diesel engines and how complicated they've become , into electronic egrs and also turbo engine braking , lol

my bloody head hurts now , but just enjoy learning new stuff, well the basics anyway

even being middle aged, never too old to learn

 

[Joe_H]

joe nodge , I've been learning a lot about engines and wished to say thks

erm , erm , oh go on ask , lol

when an egr is blanked how does the engine control the nox values and prevent it from failing an mot on emmisions plse

not trying to be awkward in any way but just enjoy learning new things

has blown my brains abit but am slowly starting to understand, well not all of the really technical side but the principles

hats off to u both

HI Gary, ignore the sideshow .
Nox is mainly controlled by both EGR and also by deliberate retarding of the point of commencement of injection. This deliberate measure has the unwanted effect of INCREASING fuel consumption by around 4% in the process. (and soot and HC and CO !!!!!!)
Nox is not tested for in the MOT currently, and even if ever introduced is unlikely to be applied to older vehicles.
The issue with 'nox' reduction is that the nature of the reduction in NOX ALSO causes unwanted increases in HC, CO and also SOOT and particulates which are in fact more concerning now than Oxides of Nitrogen. Hence there's is very little possibility - of any NOX test ever being brought in. - they have far more to be concerned about. The removal of egr is more likely to decrease any chance of a fail on visible smoke. Win Win... ... the MAF can do its stuff without the unwanted EGR crap adding to the core pollutants.

As far as the other crappy stuff - - no not the side show - the smoke and soot that you MAY fail the MOT on - as the MASS / Quantity of air entering the engine (measured of course by the MAF) is THE MAIN influencing factor on fuel regulation - see note below - then removing the egr is actually helping in reduce the actual issues that are currently tested for. So don't worry about it mate
Enjoy.

 

[gstuart]

HI Gary, ignore the sideshow .
Nox is mainly controlled by both EGR and also by deliberate retarding of the point of commencement of injection. This deliberate measure has the unwanted effect of INCREASING fuel consumption by around 4% in the process. (and soot and HC and CO !!!!!!)
Nox is not tested for in the MOT currently, and even if ever introduced is unlikely to be applied to older vehicles.
The issue with 'nox' reduction is that the nature of the reduction in NOX ALSO causes unwanted increases in HC, CO and also SOOT and particulates which are in fact more concerning now than Oxides of Nitrogen. Hence there's is very little possibility - of any NOX test ever being brought in. - they have far more to be concerned about. The removal of egr is more likely to decrease any chance of a fail on visible smoke. Win Win... ... the MAF can do its stuff without the unwanted EGR crap adding to the core pollutants.

As far as the other crappy stuff - - no not the side show - the smoke and soot that you MAY fail the MOT on - as the MASS / Quantity of air entering the engine (measured of course by the MAF) is THE MAIN influencing factor on fuel regulation - see note below - then removing the egr is actually helping in reduce the actual issues that are currently tested for. So don't worry about it mate
Enjoy.


View attachment 106987

thks joe, blanked my egr some 4 x years ago and sailed through every mot , was getting my head round things, lol

is amazing how much the Diesel engine has progressed from my old series that had the timing injection pump to the modern rail systems , having a far higher rate of injection pressure which I would assume that by increasing the pressure makes the atomisation improve

don't want to get over my head here, lol just nice to learn basic principles of the modern engine

also worked on oil boilers for many years so understood the air to oil ratio including the vecosity factors and how air can make things soot and produce carbons etc

 

[Joe_H]

been spending time funny enough reading of Diesel engines and how complicated they've become , into electronic egrs and also turbo engine braking , lol

my bloody head hurts now , but just enjoy learning new stuff, well the basics anyway

even being middle aged, never too old to learn

Hi Gary,
This is a HUGE problem among the old school alleged 'mechanics' - and I use that term loosely.. They have no or minimal computer or microprocessor experience . or indeed data comms systems experience. They also have very little electrical experience beyond changing a light bulb. Certainly 'electronics' both digital and analog is way beyond their comprehension. That is why so many small concerns are failing or simply unable to do the job. They buy a 'code reader/ and sadly think that that is it - they are good to go ! err nope. sadly not - if it say Crank Sensor - they change it at huge expense to the customer - they are numpties mostly. With the appropriate knowledge they would actually fault find on the component using electronic measurements, DSO (Storage oscilloscopes) and direct comparison of know waveforms.
It is a step too far but one has to feel sorry for them. They try their best and it is simply not enough. As you see here, some can end up feeling so lost and inadequate that they have temper tantrums and displays of absolute ignorance of any modern design.
So, fear not, you are starting with an open mind as opposed to some pig ignorant numpties that throw their dummies out if it aint got a mechanical governer on it.
You are doing fine mate.
Joe

 

[gstuart]

Hi Gary,
This is a HUGE problem among the old school alleged 'mechanics' - and I use that term loosely.. They have no or minimal computer or microprocessor experience . or indeed data comms systems experience. They also have very little electrical experience beyond changing a light bulb. Certainly 'electronics' both digital and analog is way beyond their comprehension. That is why so many small concerns are failing or simply unable to do the job. They but a 'code reader/ and that is it - if it say Crank Sensor - they change it at huge expense to the customer - they are numpties mostly. With the appropriate knowledge they would actually fault find on the component using electronic measurements, DSO (Storage oscilloscopes) and direct comparison of know waveforms.
It is a step too far but one has to feel sorry for them. They try their best and it is simply not enough. As you see here, some can end up feeling so lost and inadequate that they have temper tantrums and displays of absolute ignorance of any modern design.
So, fear not, you are starting with an open mind as opposed to some pig ignorant numpties that throw their dummies out if it aint got a mechanical governer on it.
You are doing fine mate.
Joe

cheers joe , always have an open mind and enjoy the understanding of how something works

I started working on steam boiler then basic cast iron boilers , a lot of basic engineers didn't even know how a basic thermocouple worked, then as boilers advanced we got into electronic circuit boards

the amount of times I went to a boiler and a customer said the previous comonay replaced the circuit board , 9 out of 10 was nothing to do with it , they always seemed to blame the circuit board , sometimes it was a pump, gas valve or even gas meter had run out of money , header tank empty of water , the list goes on

have always started with the basic principles of basic common sense and could honestly say I was never beaten by any boiler or system in finding out what was wrong with it

could never stand glorified part changers who just kept replacing parts , learning nothing , a trained monkey in other words

thks for the compliment joe, I do try, lol

 

[Joe_H]

There isn't one Gary, well not on a TD4 anyway. Some modern diesels do have butterfly valves, similar to a petrol engine throttle, but it performs a different function.

Hey My Mercedes OM636 had a pipe from the butterfly throttle valve linked directly to the vacuum governor. - Eeee them were them days - Ran it for 10 years in our full-time Live-aboard Yacht. A Peach of an engine. So leave my 'throttle' valves alone lol

 

[gstuart]

Hey My Mercedes OM636 had a pipe from the butterfly throttle valve linked directly to the vacuum governor. - Eeee them were them days - Ran it for 10 years in our full-time Live-aboard Yacht. A Peach of an engine. So leave my 'throttle' valves alone lol

I learnt yesterday that the bmw engine think it's the m57 engine had butterfly valves in the inlet manifold and use to drop off into the engine , but the m47 engine didn't

see am learning , lol

 

[wammers]

Hi Gary,
This is a HUGE problem among the old school alleged 'mechanics' - and I use that term loosely.. They have no or minimal computer or microprocessor experience . or indeed data comms systems experience. They also have very little electrical experience beyond changing a light bulb. Certainly 'electronics' both digital and analog is way beyond their comprehension. That is why so many small concerns are failing or simply unable to do the job. They buy a 'code reader/ and sadly think that that is it - they are good to go ! err nope. sadly not - if it say Crank Sensor - they change it at huge expense to the customer - they are numpties mostly. With the appropriate knowledge they would actually fault find on the component using electronic measurements, DSO (Storage oscilloscopes) and direct comparison of know waveforms.
It is a step too far but one has to feel sorry for them. They try their best and it is simply not enough. As you see here, some can end up feeling so lost and inadequate that they have temper tantrums and displays of absolute ignorance of any modern design.
So, fear not, you are starting with an open mind as opposed to some pig ignorant numpties that throw their dummies out if it aint got a mechanical governer on it.
You are doing fine mate.
Joe

It's also a problem for happy amateurs who don't realise how stupid some of the claims made in post 63 were. You started this shit with your stupid comment in post 66 trying to be a smart arse. Anyway carry on as you will no skin off my nose. But diesels are still throttled by fuel.

 

[Joe_H]

I learnt yesterday that the bmw engine think it's the m57 engine had butterfly valves in the inlet manifold and use to drop off into the engine , but the m47 engine didn't

see am learning , lol

You are doing great mate. A good understanding of the complexities of the M47 is a good way to learn. You can always look back to tractors from the 1950's etc (or indeed my OM636 gem that I ran for 10 years). Getting the head around the intricacies of the fundamentals of electronic control are - at first - daunting., but with your background - you can relate them to a given subject - hydrodynamics and control systems - almost perfect analog.

Stick with it and just ignore the chaff.

 

[Nodge68]

It's also a problem for happy amateurs who don't realise how stupid some of the claims made in post 63 were. You started this shit with your stupid comment in post 66 trying to be a smart arse. Anyway carry on as you will no skin off my nose. But diesels are still throttled by fuel.

Watch out, watch out, the fitter's about.

 

[Nodge68]

It's also a problem for happy amateurs who don't realise how stupid some of the claims made in post 63 were. You started this shit with your stupid comment in post 66 trying to be a smart arse. Anyway carry on as you will no skin off my nose. But diesels are still throttled by fuel.

Technically a diesel isn't throttled at all. It makes torque, as does any engine. The the older mechanical governor diesel just sprayed in more fuel to make more torque. Things don't work like that now. Now the driver requests the torque needed and the ECU puts the correct amount of fuel to match the available measured air mass.
Thus black smoke is reduced to insignificant amounts.

 

[Joe_H]

Watch out, watch out, the fitter's about.

Is he epileptic ? ...... seemed more apoplectic to me..................
DFTT !!!! - Highly recommend completely ignoring it. The folks here are wise to it's delusions of adequacy. and its pram emptying.. No more shalt be said of said bitter twisted dude who when given the offer of a frontal lobotomy or a bottle in front of me - chose the latter. (Unfortunately)
Really - no more posts to it or about it.. it will sink into oblivion soon.

 

[wammers]

Technically a diesel isn't throttled at all. It makes torque, as does any engine. The the older mechanical governor diesel just sprayed in more fuel to make more torque. Things don't work like that now. Now the driver requests the torque needed and the ECU puts the correct amount of fuel to match the available measured air mass.
Thus black smoke is reduced to insignificant amounts.

Don't talk stupid. You really don't have a bloody clue. .

 

[wammers]

Is he epileptic ? ...... seemed more apoplectic to me..................
DFTT !!!! - Highly recommend completely ignoring it. The folks here are wise to it's delusions of adequacy. and its pram emptying.. No more shalt be said of said bitter twisted dude who when given the offer of a frontal lobotomy or a bottle in front of me - chose the latter. (Unfortunately)
Really - no more posts to it or about it.. it will sink into oblivion soon.

View attachment 106994

Having fun are we you talk a load of crap and expect not to be pulled for it. Or are only you and your clueless mate the only ones allowed to post on this section?

 

[Joe_H]

Technically a diesel isn't throttled at all. It makes torque, as does any engine. The the older mechanical governor diesel just sprayed in more fuel to make more torque. Things don't work like that now. Now the driver requests the torque needed and the ECU puts the correct amount of fuel to match the available measured air mass.
Thus black smoke is reduced to insignificant amounts.

Absolutely correct Nodge mate.. It is interesting also that with modern comms systems - 'some' - think a CAN BUS is the corporation taxi to get their 'white lightening'............................................

 

[Nodge68]

Absolutely correct Nodge mate.. It is interesting also that with modern comms systems - 'some' - think a CAN BUS is the corporation taxi to get their 'white lightening'............................................

It's all so clever these days. Did you know that they can now make cider that doesn't contain apples. I guess that leaves more room for the alcohol