Wheel alignment - positive camber

This will probably seem like a stupid question, but I have been scratching my head about it for a while.

My front wheels point inwards, more on one side than the other it seems. Not talking about the toe-in, but the camber which is positive. I have it in my head that landies should be completely square at the front and there is not a way to adjust them. Or am I getting confused with something else?

My suspension and swivels are all recent (done about 8000 miles) so shouldn't be slack in those.

Any help would be much appreciated

Cheers

Alex

Bent axle

That's not too good!

Just looked in the SIII ROM, simply says:"No adjustment is provided for Camber Caster or swivil pin inclination" Doesn't say what the angles should be though!
I thought that the camber was neutral; but not necesserily.
Possitive Camber is when the angle of the wheels follows the camber of the road; ie they tilt out at the top; so it would be a bit of a freak accident that bent the axle up to get it; would expect the axle to bend down between the wheels and give negative camber like an old rotaflex spitfire's back wheels!
Thought occurs, though, the swivil pins are inclined, which means that the camber angle changes as the wheel swings round the swivil; Swivil pin angles out, so as the hubs go round it... had this sussed a second ago; now I'm doing a marcel Marceau impression and confusing myself!
Camber angle will change!; and I think BOTH wheels will LOOSE camber...... (now!) Too long since I had to know this stuff OTMH!
But mention of one wheel tilting more than tother, made me think perhaps the axle isn't at right angles to the chassis; one wheel is ahead of the other, and when both wheels are pointing straight ahead (less the toe-in angle!) they are actually 'steering' slightly one way to 'correct' for the out of tru axle angle...... perhaps!
Then of course there is th toe-in angle, and if the axle is twisted toe in could become a bit of camber, but I cant for the life of me think hoe you'd get THAT much twist in there!

Thanks for your thoughts!

Possitive Camber is when the angle of the wheels follows the camber of the road; ie they tilt out at the top

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Yup that is what they do. It doesn't steer weird or anything though. Or perhaps I have just got used to it!

me think perhaps the axle isn't at right angles to the chassis

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Is the only way this is possible if the leaf mounts have been pushed into an odd place and therefore the axle twisted? Either that or one side of the chassis is twisted? I think I need to have a look and see jsut how far out the camber is.

Or could it be soemthing as simple as a really knackered wheel bearing?

rustyrhinos said:

Thanks for your thoughts!



Yup that is what they do. It doesn't steer weird or anything though. Or perhaps I have just got used to it!



Is the only way this is possible if the leaf mounts have been pushed into an odd place and therefore the axle twisted? Either that or one side of the chassis is twisted? I think I need to have a look and see jsut how far out the camber is.

Or could it be soemthing as simple as a really knackered wheel bearing?

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my long time series 3 project has this as well, i thought it was just more noticable as it's had no front end for the last 2 years and i'm always working in front of it in my shed! i have stripped and overhauled the front axle and it definatly didnt look bent!! but i might have failed to assemble the hubs properly......

Axle alignment? Myriad of causes, starting with the suspension bushes, going through handed springs fitted the wrong way round, up to a 'sprung' chassis; dumb irons can 'relax' quite a common cause, one end goes up a bit more than the other, they get worse the thinner the steel gets with age; And cross members; as thet loose thier strength, so the two chassis rails can start to twist in relation to each other.

MOST common cause though is the pip on the leaf spring not being aligned with the boss in the axle mount. Its a tiny bleeding boss and very easy to miss altogether, then the pip sits in the dish of the axle mount, and the alignment can be anywhere!

Once clamped down on the U-bolts, also hard to spot unless seriousely 'out'.

But he's not talking about alignment but caster angle. This can only be caused in a straight axle by the axle having rolled a bit (not mounted properly), or the spring angle being wrong, either through wear or using extended shackles at one end. In practise neither of these usually cause problems. All these will affect both ends.
If the caster angel differs side to side in must mean a bent/twisted axle.

Davec said:

But he's not talking about alignment but caster angle.

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He is! He expressely asked

Is the only way this is possible if the leaf mounts have been pushed into an odd place and therefore the axle twisted?.[/quote

I mentioned it becouse Caster Angle IS effected by the geometry of the steering round the swivil; like a motorbike, the wheel 'tilts' as it steers through the head-stock; if the axle is out-of line then the wheels MAY tilt a bit at the 'straight ahead' possitions, becouse the steering axi is pointing slightly sideways..... Dont think it should cause a particularly noticeable caster effect, but, I dont know, depends how sharp his eyes are and how 'bad' it is, I suppose!

And I have had moments swearing at those pips on the springs, myself!

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Had another loook underneath...on one side you can see where the leaf sits on the axle that it isn't straight...on the kerbside the leaf is lifted up. Weather or not this is because it simply isn't seated correctly on the axle, or because it can't be seated correctly because of the axle twist I won't know until I have a proper look.

Perhaps I am being over-cautious and exaggerating the camber...but I can see it in my eyes!

guys guys...it's normal for a series to have positive camber !! they all have, but you only notice it when the wings are off. Had that question on a Belgian forum too..and the front axle has indeed positive camber. Old cars all have it, so the tyres would follow the road better..they weren't always flat you know ..just look at the older tractors = positive camber

NO NO NO!

The BACK axle of a Landy has NO toe-in or out, NO caster angle, and NO camber angle. This is because it is a proper NO STEERING rigid driving axle with rigid half-shafts.

The FRONT axles of ALL Landies is quite a different matter.

Here we have universal joints at the hubs, and so we can have the road wheels pointing any way we choose, good bad or indifferent. We can't do that at the back.

To make the car STEER nicely the TOP swivel pin will sit above (obviously!) and slightly BEHIND the lower swivel. The creates a CASTER angle, and that means the car will tend to steer straight ahead, and to go where it is being pulled, as in on an A-Frame tow.

To make the car steer even nicer they will usually have the suspension arranged so that it has POSITIVE CAMBER, that is, the tops of the tyres stick out a tad further than the bottoms.

To try to minimise tyre wear and make steering even nicer, they build-in TOE-IN as well, which has the effect when the car rolls to one side of inducing a tiny bit of extra steering towards the other side, which makes the car "feel" stable. They CAN and do also arrange a little of this at the rear axle even using leaf springs.

Unless you have bent your front axle there's exactly nothing you can do about these angles. They are designed in, and LandRover got it all about perfect.

I feel sure the specified angles data will be available somewhere.
Why bother?

CharlesY

Which comes back to my point, if it is different at each end of the axle, the axle is bent!

Davec said:

Which comes back to my point, if it is different at each end of the axle, the axle is bent!

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Probably, but not necessarily.

It could be a swivel bearing has collapsed, or a swivel hub itself has become bent.

Jack the car up.

Use a good spirit level and make one wheel dead vertical, then nip round and try the other wheel. The bubble should be a little off vertical, with the TOP of the level outwards. Now make that wheel dead vertical, and nip round to the first one again. It should now be off vertical by the same amount as the other one.

If they are noticeably different, check it all out.

It takes a TREMENDOUS thump to bend an axle.

CharlesY

CharlesY said:

It takes a TREMENDOUS thump to bend an axle.

CharlesY

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That is what I have always thought, but I have no idea how I bent mine!

Davec said:

That is what I have always thought, but I have no idea how I bent mine!

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Once again, you are assuming it is bent!

Until you have proof of that I suggest you assume it isn't, and look elsewhere if there's a problem.

CharlesY

If the bolts holding the swivels on are tight, and the swivel bushes are tight, wheel bearings etc are tight, there is no adjustment on the camber angle, so if it is wrong, something is bent!

Davec said:

If the bolts holding the swivels on are tight, and the swivel bushes are tight, wheel bearings etc are tight, there is no adjustment on the camber angle, so if it is wrong, something is bent!

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BUT ..... HOW DO YOU KNOW something is wrong?


CharlesY

Because one wheel was leaning in more than the other. Even then I ignored it until a friend fitted mud tyres and hitched up a nose heavy caravan, and declared it undrivable. I then looked at the tyre wear! An expensive way to find out, surely LandyZone should be a way of preventing others making the same costly mistake.
Oh, and a different axle casing solved the problem.

rustyrhinos said:

This will probably seem like a stupid question, but I have been scratching my head about it for a while.

My front wheels point inwards, more on one side than the other it seems. Not talking about the toe-in, but the camber which is positive. I have it in my head that landies should be completely square at the front and there is not a way to adjust them. Or am I getting confused with something else?

My suspension and swivels are all recent (done about 8000 miles) so shouldn't be slack in those.

Any help would be much appreciated

Cheers

Alex

Click to expand...

so, did you get to the bottom of the camber problem?
i seem to have the same problem!:doh: