Vehicle purchase not as described?

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I_Danny

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11
Location
Wales
I bought the vehicle a 2007 Discovery. It was described on the advert with the statement 'Engine and Gearbox fine, no problems'. He also confirmed in person that there were no issues with the cooling system, head gasket or ancillaries to the engine. I have a copy of the advert. However after driving it home, on arrival at my property I noticed a leakage from the footwell area running under the vehicle. On looking further I found that the coolant level was low and that the leak seemed to be coming from behind the dashboard of the van. In order to get to the issue I had to remove almost al of the dashboard, the gear lever, the steering wheel and the electrical cables, as well as some of the heater pipes in the engine bay. This enabled me to remove the heater system and to therefore remove the heater matrix. This showed that the matrix was corroded and had a hole in the centre and needed replacing. I purchased a new matrix and re-fitted it into the van and re-fitted the entire dash and parts described above. During this process I documented the steps and kept in contact with the seller to ask for a partial refund as in my opinion the vehicle was not as described.

Question is does the fault contradict the sellers description of 'Engine and Gearbox fine, no problems'. He states that the matrix is not part of the engine, therefore his description is not in question. My argument is that the matrix forms part of the engine cooling system and if it is broken the engine cannot be considered as having '...no problems'

Am I correct?
 
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Firstly, what is your angle? What are you are after?

Was it a trader or a private seller? If trader, then there are laws to protect buyers. Google is your friend..... ;)

However, if they are a trader, you should have given them chance to resolve the issue or agree to let someone else (even yourself) to resolve it first. You can't just do work on a vehicle then expect money back.

If they are a private seller you basically have little come back.

Do remember, you as the buyer are just as responsible. You have opportunity to inspect before buying.

And I'd say no way at all is a heater matrix covered under 'engine & gearbox'. Go back in time and many cars didn't even have heaters.
 
300bhp/ton said:
Firstly, what is your angle? What are you are after?

Was it a trader or a private seller? If trader, then there are laws to protect buyers. Google is your friend..... ;)

However, if they are a trader, you should have given them chance to resolve the issue or agree to let someone else (even yourself) to resolve it first. You can't just do work on a vehicle then expect money back.

If they are a private seller you basically have little come back.

Do remember, you as the buyer are just as responsible. You have opportunity to inspect before buying.

And I'd say no way at all is a heater matrix covered under 'engine & gearbox'. Go back in time and many cars didn't even have heaters.
Click to expand...
Sure heaters are not essential, but radiators are.. The heater is an extension of the rad / cooling system. No coolant = no engine surely? Nobody would disagree that an essential part of the engine is its fluid, whether that be oil or coolant. any issue with either surely describes the engine as 'having a problem'?
 
I get where you are trying to go with this and why. I do sympathise, but feel it’s a stretch to say the matrix is part of the engine cooling system. Yes it is an auxiliary part of that system, but is not essentialy needed to cool the engine. I think that makes sense 🤔
 
I would forget it unless you would like to be involved in costly litigation,
I dont think any seller would be liable for anything once a non qualified home mechanic has had something apart and then fixed it,
If you take it to get an experts written report at your cost then you may get the price of the part,
Sometimes the games just not worth the candle,
I would have either accepted i had bought 'as seen' or have taken it back as soon as i saw a leak, certainly before working on it,
I would feel different if something had been bodged and hidden tho'
Good luck with it
 
meego said:
I get where you are trying to go with this and why. I do sympathise, but feel it’s a stretch to say the matrix is part of the engine cooling system. Yes it is an auxiliary part of that system, but is not essentialy needed to cool the engine. I think that makes sense 🤔
Click to expand...
True, it can be bypassed. I did this before removing the heater matrix and could have kept it like that if I didnt mind freezing my ***** off during the winter months. I suppose you could likewise say a radiator in your home is not needed to cool the property..? A cold home wont break it, but it could be described as having problems.

An automotive heater core is used to provide heat for the passenger cabin as well as the windshield defroster. A car with a bad heater core can be driven, but there are a number of reasons why it is not a good idea.

Quote from Haynes "A heater matrix forms part of a car’s cooling system, but instead of solely being used to cool down the vehicle’s coolant, it takes the heat from that coolant and uses it to warm the car’s cabin."

Engine Overheating​



A heater core often goes bad due to leaking. As the heater core uses engine coolant to generate heat, a leaking heater core will reduce the amount of coolant in the cooling system. Low coolant will cause an engine to run at a higher temperature, which can result in extensive engine damage.

Cooling System Damage​



When a heater core leaks, it is generally due to corrosion of the core's metal body. Some of this corroded material will be carried into the cooling system where it may damage the water pump and clog the radiator. This material will also scour the inside of the cooling system and may cause leaks in other areas.

Driving Safety​



Without a properly functioning heater core, the windshield defroster will not have heat. In this situation, the driver will have difficulty maintaining a clear windshield, which will create a hazardous situation. The lack of heat in the vehicle can also be unsafe in some climates.
 
Last edited:
I_Danny said:
Sure heaters are not essential, but radiators are.. The heater is an extension of the rad / cooling system. No coolant = no engine surely? Nobody would disagree that an essential part of the engine is its fluid, whether that be oil or coolant. any issue with either surely describes the engine as 'having a problem'?
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Feel free to argue it away. But I don't think any reasonable person however would deem the heater matrix as part of the engine or gearbox. Arguably the cooling system is not really 'directly' part of the engine either.

You also avoided answering what your aim/goal is here or if it was private/trade?
 
300bhp/ton said:
Feel free to argue it away. But I don't think any reasonable person however would deem the heater matrix as part of the engine or gearbox. Arguably the cooling system is not really 'directly' part of the engine either.

You also avoided answering what your aim/goal is here or if it was private/trade?
Click to expand...
Arguing the case helps to weigh it up.. it was a private purchase, obviously more difficult to resolve except through small claims, which rests on the validity of the claim argument - in this case whether a vehicle with a broken heater core can fairly be described as having an engine with no problems. 'no problems' being the key issue. I'd say it had some problems in that if the problem were known, it would be considered a potential problem in the vehicle and the engine.
 
Private sale, onus is on purchaser to carry out inspection. Did it not leak after the test drive? Flogging a dead horse here mate, wipe your mouth and move on. Welcome to Land Rover ownership

I bought mine sold as seen private, needs things doing the seller didn't declare and I didn't pick up on inspection. It is what it is.
 
I_Danny said:
Arguing the case helps to weigh it up.. it was a private purchase, obviously more difficult to resolve except through small claims, which rests on the validity of the claim argument - in this case whether a vehicle with a broken heater core can fairly be described as having an engine with no problems. 'no problems' being the key issue. I'd say it had some problems in that if the problem were known, it would be considered a potential problem in the vehicle and the engine.
Click to expand...
I don't think any court would side with you that a leak on the heater matrix is a breach of description of "Engine and Gearbox fine, no problems". But it is your time & money to waste, so go for it ;)
 
I note you mention the word van, is it a commercial, and are you a business?

Pretty rare for any heater matrix to fail, not heard of one failing before on a disco 3.
 
My guess is that the matrix failed due to the rad being filled with water not coolant, causing corrosion resulting in a blockage / leak in the matrix. the hole was probably unblocked on the return journey which was 200 miles. All I know is that the matrix poured like an open tap from a hole in its centre. I also now suspect the vehicle was not used for a long lime.
 
Is the engine and gearbox fine as per the advert?
Heater matrix is not part of the engine or gearbox as you know.
While I get its annoying just move on. As land rover owners I am sure many of us have found a problem almost straight away.
Our Series 2a needed a new petrol tank before we even got home, only leaked if you filled it up more than half way!
 
Anaconda said:
Is the engine and gearbox fine as per the advert?
Heater matrix is not part of the engine or gearbox as you know.
While I get its annoying just move on. As land rover owners I am sure many of us have found a problem almost straight away.
Our Series 2a needed a new petrol tank before we even got home, only leaked if you filled it up more than half way!
Click to expand...
Can't help but think the OP is clutching at straws. Seems he's fixed it. Good oh! Could be worse!

In a private sale unless you record the conversation with the seller and have a 3rd party there witnessing it they can say almost anything and get away with it.

Engine and gearbox to me means exactly that, and they do appear to be OK.
Suck it up and move on!
 
I don't think an engine that loses coolant can ever be regarded as being "fine, no problems", irrespective of how it's doing it. The heater matrix may not be an integral part of the engine but the coolant is. So I suggest that if you want to take this up with the seller, you should focus on the coolant loss and not the heater matrix.
 
I_Danny said:
My guess is that the matrix failed due to the rad being filled with water not coolant, causing corrosion resulting in a blockage / leak in the matrix. the hole was probably unblocked on the return journey which was 200 miles. All I know is that the matrix poured like an open tap from a hole in its centre. I also now suspect the vehicle was not used for a long lime.
Click to expand...
Have you checked the engine yourself, ie is it the original engine?
Cambelts last done?and on the d3 the oil pump casting is weak unless it has the later pump fitted.
 
Sold as seen and wear n tear for the age. If the original owner kept service history and regular repair records when selling. It's incumbent upon the buyer to assess the vehicle by inspection or buy on trust the seller good faith.
Inspection would give a basic report.
Personal with seller in tow you can take the vehicle for a several mile drive to guage for any issues arise before and after.
Once purchased a leeway if no action taken, based on physical repair by the new owner.
Suchlike engine gearbox drivetrain brakes failed recompense or return due to sale of unfit for purpose.
In respect of notice a water leakage, this was not noted by seller and by account buyers action.
You mentioned in the action of searching to dismantling to find the culprit of failure. By your actions you took on the repairs from first unscrewing instead of noting the leakage and query the seller of the problem.
 
saxavordian said:
Sold as seen and wear n tear for the age. If the original owner kept service history and regular repair records when selling. It's incumbent upon the buyer to assess the vehicle by inspection or buy on trust the seller good faith.
Inspection would give a basic report.
Personal with seller in tow you can take the vehicle for a several mile drive to guage for any issues arise before and after.
Once purchased a leeway if no action taken, based on physical repair by the new owner.
Suchlike engine gearbox drivetrain brakes failed recompense or return due to sale of unfit for purpose.
In respect of notice a water leakage, this was not noted by seller and by account buyers action.
You mentioned in the action of searching to dismantling to find the culprit of failure. By your actions you took on the repairs from first unscrewing instead of noting the leakage and query the seller of the problem.
Click to expand...
...and here endeth the lesson, Thanks be to God!!!;)
 
NPG said:
I don't think an engine that loses coolant can ever be regarded as being "fine, no problems", irrespective of how it's doing it. The heater matrix may not be an integral part of the engine but the coolant is. So I suggest that if you want to take this up with the seller, you should focus on the coolant loss and not the heater matrix.
Click to expand...
Take it up how? It is a private sale and the fault only appeared 200 miles after buying it. On a vehicle that is 16 years old and probably 150,000 miles or more. No small claims court is going to give two hoots.
 
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