Transfer box woes

the_wolf · May 27, 2021

I've been trying to sort this for longer than I'd like and I really need to get it fixed. I've got lateral and up down movement on my front (and probably rear) output flange and despite fitting a new bearing just last year its back again and worse than before. Last week I fitted a new front flange and oil seal and now the movement is very obvious and it's got a noticeable leak as well. I don't know what else I can do to try and get it sorted, everything else is mostly OK other than the drivetrain from the gearbox back and I'd rather get it fixed before I pull my hair out.
I want to avoid fitting a new transfer box if I can help it. I've did it before and that was not a fun job nor do I have the cash for it. Actual rotational play on the box isn't that bad at all with the prop off whereas there's more play than I'd like coming from the diff and axle but thats another job I'll look at once I've got these flange problems fixed!

Brown · May 27, 2021

It's difficult to get rid of this entirely. The problem is that unlike a lot of bearings in Land Rovers which are paired tapered rollers that you can adjust, they're just single ball bearing races. So you often get a tiny bit of movement, even with relatively new bearings. They're steadied a little by the fact that the output shafts go back inside the centre diff, but it's not the same as having another bearing. If the bearings are reasonably tight on the shafts, and reasonably secure in the outer housing, then there's a limit to what can be achieved I'm afraid. How much play have you got?

the_wolf · May 27, 2021

Brown said:
It's difficult to get rid of this entirely. The problem is that unlike a lot of bearings in Land Rovers which are paired tapered rollers that you can adjust, they're just single ball bearing races. So you often get a tiny bit of movement, even with relatively new bearings. They're steadied a little by the fact that the output shafts go back inside the centre diff, but it's not the same as having another bearing. If the bearings are reasonably tight on the shafts, and reasonably secure in the outer housing, then there's a limit to what can be achieved I'm afraid. How much play have you got?

More than I would like. I wasn't bothered about a little bit of play but this is definitely more than there should be. I don't understand the leak as well as it wasn't leaking prior to replacing the flange but I've seated the seal as far against the bearing outer race as I can. The problem this is giving me though is a hell of a clunk on taking up drive which, for the most part, I can avoid but I can't stop it happening entirely. Driving over rough terrain this afternoon it made a hell of a racket underneath which it shouldn't be doing. You can see the amount of play here -

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7132KTSBP3coQ7ww9

Brown · May 27, 2021

Something's clunking there. However, with the camera moving, it's hard to see just where it is coming from. How are the splines on the propshaft? Have you got any movement there? And the universal joints? The propshaft looks fairly new, in factory finish black paint, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's blameless. I find with drivetrain slack on mine that it's often a tiny bit of wear on several things at once that does it, so renewing one bit at a time tends to take a tiny bit of noise out, 'til you eventually get it down to something acceptable. Another thing that occurs to me is to try taking the propshaft off and putting another few foot pounds of torque onto the nut holding the flange onto the shaft. I've taken out a bit of movement that way sometimes. They're not supposed to come loose but they can. Same goes for the flange at the diff end.

My experience (of course your mileage may vary) is that a good deal of the drive take-up clunk comes from the rear half of the drivetrain rather than the front. The splines between the halfshafts and the hub drive flanges are particular culprits, but I've also found it with loose universal joints, a loose diff drive flange and loose nuts on the propshaft bolts. The nylock is supposed to hold them in place but doesn't always.

I think you might have a tiny bit of movement in a number of places and it's the cumulative effect of all of it that's making things noisy.

the_wolf · May 27, 2021

Brown said:
Something's clunking there. However, with the camera moving, it's hard to see just where it is coming from. How are the splines on the propshaft? Have you got any movement there? And the universal joints? The propshaft looks fairly new, in factory finish black paint, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's blameless. I find with drivetrain slack on mine that it's often a tiny bit of wear on several things at once that does it, so renewing one bit at a time tends to take a tiny bit of noise out, 'til you eventually get it down to something acceptable. Another thing that occurs to me is to try taking the propshaft off and putting another few foot pounds of torque onto the nut holding the flange onto the shaft. I've taken out a bit of movement that way sometimes. They're not supposed to come loose but they can. Same goes for the flange at the diff end.

My experience (of course your mileage may vary) is that a good deal of the drive take-up clunk comes from the rear half of the drivetrain rather than the front. The splines between the halfshafts and the hub drive flanges are particular culprits, but I've also found it with loose universal joints, a loose diff drive flange and loose nuts on the propshaft bolts. The nylock is supposed to hold them in place but doesn't always.

I think you might have a tiny bit of movement in a number of places and it's the cumulative effect of all of it that's making things noisy.

The propshaft is brand new however the UJ at the transfer box does seem to have a little play already and I don't know how much of this is down to the flange movement. I tightened the flange nut up to the recommended torque then just a little bit tighter with a breaker bar so it's definitely on there tight enough.
I do still need to have a look at the rear but I'll be taking the prop off to do the UJ anyway and I know that the rear flange has a bit of lift in it as well although I'm not sure how excessive. I think it's cos I have the leak at the front I've been trying to focus on sorting that first before working back. The drive flanges are on my list to check as well as the halfshafts and I do think they're contributing to the clunking. The transfer box and its many leaks is my priority for the time being though

Brown · May 27, 2021

There's generally less apparent play on the rear output bearing because the shaft is longer and hence it's held steadier. It feels like a lot on the front because it's a shorter shaft so a bearing with the same tolerance can yield more apparent movement. If you find a brand of bearing that's built to tighter tolerances do let us know. I think I've got NTNs in at the moment. Like everybody on here says, I try to avoid Britpart's own brand where possible. The seal may simply be a duff one.

tottot · May 27, 2021

That clunk/clatch is coming from the front output area ?
If so it could be a problem with the centre diff itself. If you engage diff lock and much on the noise movement goes away there's yer problem.
My front output kept leaking with a lot less movement than yours, changed seal several times but soon went to leak. About 5 years ago I removed the tin shield from the flange and was then able to fit two seals in the housing. Not leaked since.

the_wolf · May 27, 2021

Im going to look at replacing both bearings just to completely rule that out. Like you say it may be a duff seal. I've got a new one here that I'm sure is an oem one so I'll look at replacing it tomorrow and hopefully that'll sort the leak.
Its hard to say where the clunk is coming from for definite but looking at the amount of rotational play I'd say its that when taking up drive but the actual rotational play in the output flange isn't anywhere near as much as the diff flange so I'm going to check out the drive flanges and halfshafts. Never thought to check it with diff lock on and rule out the centre diff but if that's the case then it definitely will be a new box, I'm not up to stripping this one down and repairing it to that extent.
I was actually wondering earlier if I seated the mud shield down far enough so that it wasn't interfering with the oil seal but I'll check that tomorrow when I've got it off again. If I still get a leak with the new seal I have fitted then I'll possibly try your method with two seals but it was totally leak free before with the old flange and mud shield on

Disco1BFG · May 27, 2021

IME, the output flange can develop a wear ring, which whilst tiny, as in barely perceptible with your finger nail, is enough to allow oil to leak - cheap enough to replace, - you probably already knew this....

I'd second the NTN bearings as good, also Timken, and IMO avoid like the absolute plague both bearings and seals that are br*tpart anonymous ones.... I will only use Corteco seals, ( and since you asked

, only Timken wheel bearings

).

Guessing you have the fibre washers in place behind the nyloc nuts ?

There's a mass of info on here about the LT230 - including issues with the centre diff ... if the search is working, it'd be worth looking - apologies if you have already done this and found nothing you think applicable.

the_wolf · May 28, 2021

Disco1BFG said:
IME, the output flange can develop a wear ring, which whilst tiny, as in barely perceptible with your finger nail, is enough to allow oil to leak - cheap enough to replace, - you probably already knew this....

I'd second the NTN bearings as good, also Timken, and IMO avoid like the absolute plague both bearings and seals that are br*tpart anonymous ones.... I will only use Corteco seals, ( and since you asked , only Timken wheel bearings ).

Guessing you have the fibre washers in place behind the nyloc nuts ?

There's a mass of info on here about the LT230 - including issues with the centre diff ... if the search is working, it'd be worth looking - apologies if you have already done this and found nothing you think applicable.

After doing a bit of reading I'm wondering if the seal garter spring came off when I was fitting it and that would explain the leak? Ill live with it the now until I can get a hold of some good quality bearings and I'll replace both the front and rear.
I've replaced the rear diff seal and one of the UJs today and there's minimal rotational play from the rear axle so I'm sure that the clunking is coming from the transfer box forwards. I'll check the centre diff today with it in difflock and see if that gets rid of the clunk. I'm kind of hoping not as it means I can start looking at halfshafts etc... If it does it means a new box...

tottot · May 28, 2021

A mates truck was making that noise and when we removed the centre diff [ done in the vehicle ] we found the cross pin had broken.

the_wolf · May 28, 2021

tottot said:
A mates truck was making that noise and when we removed the centre diff [ done in the vehicle ] we found the cross pin had broken.

How did you go about removing it with the box in situ? Was it easy enough to do? Ashcroft sell replacement centre diffs so it's something I could have a look at

tottot · May 28, 2021

It was a while ago but remember having little difficulty removing the front housing. Have a look at Brittanica restorations LT 230 rebuild on the you tube, they are good and he often explains how things can be done without special tools.

the_wolf · May 28, 2021

I do follow his channel so I'll have a look for that vid. What's the best way to diagnose it? I stuck it in diff lock and drove into my street and it made a hell of a clunking noise most of the way. Out of diff lock it was fine (or as fine as it can be)

tottot · May 28, 2021

Sounds like it is not the centre diff then as they tend to go quieter when in. You could try the old trick of driving with out the props on in turn, with lock in it will drive on front or rear axle you can then see if the clatter is from front or rear drive train

the_wolf · May 28, 2021

tottot said:
Sounds like it is not the centre diff then as they tend to go quieter when in. You could try the old trick of driving with out the props on in turn, with lock in it will drive on front or rear axle you can then see if the clatter is from front or rear drive train

Just checked all high and low ranges there, diff lock on and off and its not as bad as I thought, it's just the usual clunk that Im hearing that I'm trying to get to the bottom of. I think best course of action is replace both front and rear output bearings and oil seals and work from there. Looking at the minimal play I have in the rear diff and axle and confident it's not that so I'm leaning more towards it being an issue with the front. I'm still not happy with the amount of play the front output flange has but I'm not sure how I can minimise that as much as possible

the_wolf · May 28, 2021

Video of the rear prop versus the amount of movement on the front prop. I tried to show the amount of lift in the output flange but you can't make it out due to the camera moving around too much

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AxbjUrzV3PLXw2dm9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/V3D12NqHqiYF61cXA

I'm going to take the pto cover off and check how much wear and tear there is on the input shaft, as well as the drive members on the front axle. The rear has HD ones fitted but they could probably do with new ones all round, it wouldn't hurt

tottot · May 29, 2021

I have to say the amount of movement on your truck is about the same as on my landy [ 175 k ] with more on the front. There does tend to be more on front axles due to there being more places for wear to take place. Good idea to check the transfer output as that one gives a good clunk when worn.
Check Brittanica vids again.
P.S. One other item that makes a good clunk on take up is a worn rear axle A frame bush.

the_wolf · May 29, 2021

tottot said:
I have to say the amount of movement on your truck is about the same as on my landy [ 175 k ] with more on the front. There does tend to be more on front axles due to there being more places for wear to take place. Good idea to check the transfer output as that one gives a good clunk when worn.
Check Brittanica vids again.
P.S. One other item that makes a good clunk on take up is a worn rear axle A frame bush.

It's hard to try and describe it. It's not the traditional clunk that you normally hear and with the UJ done yesterday it's improved driving a bit but there is still the odd chirp of a UJ on its way out now and again and I wouldn't necessarily say that the clunk happens only when taking up drive. I'm still leaning towards a lot of the sound being the movement in that front flange but I don't know how to lessen that enough

tottot · May 29, 2021

I know it can take some time to track down an odd noise, plenty of places for them to come from in a landy drive system.

Try running without front prop and see if it goes away, you will then know if worth getting into front housing.

Transfer box woes

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads