The Sea of understanding

jimmacD · Dec 6, 2019

It always amazes me how so many people know so little about the cars they drive. As a Land Rover owner I have had to learn about the mechanical stuff and what to look for when buying. The Land Rover community is full of like minded people with similar tastes and experiences. I find that there is always common ground other than Land Rovers when meeting enthusiasts and an interest in how stuff works and why quite often it doesn't. I sold a car for a family friend privately as she had moved abroad. Two weeks later the new owner's father and a mechanic marched into my workplace demanding a refund! Why? After his daughter had used it to commute two miles each day, lights on, heater going and radio tuned to local fm, the car wouldn't start and has a flat battery! What you gonna do about it? Have you tried charging the battery? No! My mechanic (part worn tyre sales) says the car is not fit for purpose.... why? Its got a flat battery and my daughter can't use it! At this point I politely asked them to leave. My point is this, as Land Rover owners do we have a gene which makes us "fix it and move on" with life and a mild contempt for the "mipmops" who struggle to put fuel in the right hole and feels the World owes them a living?

My Old Landy · Dec 6, 2019

My feelings too. I work with some brilliantly minded folk who can design multi million pound installations but if they jump into their cars and they don't start they are at a loss

sad to say, even garage staff can have no clue. If there are no codes (or in my 90's case, no OBD port) they are flummoxed

My father taught me how to fix things but my daughters are not interested. If it's broke, ask some one else to fix it or throw it away and get a new one.
Generally, the modern consumer generation in the UK have no interest in why or how things work.

DanClarke · Dec 6, 2019

We are the last "make-do-and-mend" generation in the UK. I get irked when I can see that something I purchased has failed because it has been "designed to fail" in order to keep the market demand up.
CH has been running for over 30 years and I replace worn parts as and when (far cheaper than the new versions that need replacing every 10-12 years).
All my appliances are kept running until they become uneconomical to repair.
I don't want anything more "modern" than my P38 because that would introduce "FRU Hell" into my life, and many servicing places only understand wholesale parts swapping and cannot fix at a component level.
/rant.

v8250 · Dec 6, 2019

My Old Landy said:
the modern consumer generation in the UK have no interest in why or how things work

Sadly, this is firmly the case. I'm one of the lucky ones who, as a consulting engineer, has always been able to repair components, parts...and over the past 30 years, most cars. And I guess like many a Land Rover owner I much prefer to make do and mend something. I work within a highly skilled and regulated technical environment but, even here, most of the 'engineers' are but desk jockey types who'd really struggle to repair their vehicles, let alone wire a plug[!] They'd much rather pay some PCP type finance company £500 a month through the main stealers to service/repair their vehicles whilst they sit on their arses watching television. Or even worse, social media

I find the approximate cut off age for this to be those below the age of 35-40 years old and I really struggle to understand their immediate acceptance of a dummed-down life of TV, Insta**** and dining out on McDonald's food [pls note, McDonald's is NOT a restaurant!]. Worryingly, these folk are now life's majority who have the right to vote and may well lead the Country into the abyss next Thursday...

Dear God...

Off now to remove Lucy's chequer plate sills, clean up the under bodywork and treat with Bilt Hamber's Dynax UB

Colthebrummie · Dec 6, 2019

How true all of this is. My mechanically inept stepson recently announced he has a new girlfriend who is studying mechanical engineering and design at Portsmouth university. I was delighted, great, says I, she can help me fix the landy. "Oh, I doubt it" he says "it's all done on CAD now". So here we have a bright young thing who will be able to tell me the tensile strength of my halfshafts but won't have a clue how to change one. I wonder what she will make of my collection of hammers.

Col

derwendolly · Dec 6, 2019

I really shouldn't have come into this thread

but before I slither away and hide can I just say that it is very interesting and what you all are saying is certainly the way the world has gone, not that my world was ever any use to me when it came to maintaining a vehicle.

Brown · Dec 6, 2019

I had a conversation about cars with somebody from work the other day because he's recently changed his car for something even more luxurious. We happened to be standing next to it. It was some sort of Mercedes SUV type of thing. 'Let's have a look under the bonnet' I said, of course. Although he had owned it for about a month he was unable to find the bonnet release mechanism. So after a bit of fiddling I changed the subject so as to spare his embarrassment. This man isn't thick, by any means, and is quite a distinguished scientist in his field. Yet the interest he has in the nature of biological materials and the corresponding lab based skills haven't quite percolated through to an interest in his car. He knows all about the luxury features of course, but hasn't devoted himself to the mysteries of how things work.

Before we go too far down the route of saying that young people don't know how to do stuff and old people do, don't forget that people have always sought to avoid doing this sort of thing themselves and got others to do so instead. Not too many years ago, even tiny villages had enough work to support carpenters, cobblers, blacksmiths as well as all manner of gardeners and handymen. There would be different kinds too - as well as general chippies, there'd be specialist like wheelwrights and coopers, There'd be general smiths and specialised farriers. For the most part, their customers wouldn't have been rich people. All of them were making a living because people couldn't or didn't want to do these kinds of jobs themselves.

These days you don't have to spend very long on the internet before you come across loads of people, many of whom are quite young, getting stuck in with tools and making things. It's hard to know exactly how popular this is now in relation to how it might have been in days gone by, but there's rising generation of makers, DIY enthusiasts, blacksmiths, carpenters and mechanics, who are doing things I couldn't have dreamed of when I was a young adult.

jimmacD · Dec 6, 2019

It could possibly be that the early 50 somethings are the last generation who grew up with "make and mend"? There are exceptions to the rule and you can find them modifying and reverse engineering stuff on interweb. I think we are the generation who watch TV programmes like "I'm a celeb" and "Bear Grylls" with fond memories of camp outs in the Summer holidays or Winters spent on Dartmoor. One year I spent living under a plastic sheet in the garden as a kid, don't ask me why, we just did stuff like that and our idea of fun was being cold and wet camped on a snowy hillside, these days they make programmes about it and call it extreme survival, for the softer generation! It does become a rod for my back being able to fix stuff, my Family have high expectations of my abilities and I sometimes have to admit defeat using the excuse... just don't have the time. I would like to think my generation come after a long line of fixers...... bodgers? Judging by the state of classic vehicles I see during the summer fete season and stuff bought from old boys who maintain their pride and joys! Just bought an early Volvo 850 T5, chap too old to keep it going... fook me its got some bodges! My previous 850 was a one owner old boy car and geez the bodges were monumental.... glovebox latch broke, new latch £15... nah, I'll use a bolt lock and kitchen hinge.... he couldn't work out that the side light had a spring retainer.... so he fashioned a mounting bracket which was then rivetted into the headlight? Rear spring mounting bracket had cracked.... he screwed a wooden blank across the top.... £10 to fix with correct bracket? Age does not always bring experience, it does sometimes bring arrogance, the genration which didn't read the instructions or open the repair manual. My Father in law would rather fail than accept my advice on anything mechanical and yet he is the first to admit he knows nothing about engineering etc... weird, as he was Head of Construction at a University.

cappers · Dec 6, 2019

I think that many of us growing up in the 50s/60s/70s were the 'take it apart to see how it works' types. Things were mechanical, clockwork, and here's the crux, repairable. As mentioned above modern consumer items appear to be designed to fail over time (usually a few days after the warranty expires) and furthermore they aren't 'user serviceable' and heavily electronic. So the take-it-apart mentality is not fostered. As @Brown says, there are youngsters capable and willing to make, repair, refurbish and upcycle but I think they are a minority. Long term, blatant consumerism will probably decline and together with increasing austerity that might be the impetus for a return to the days of 'mend and make do'.

Hey @jimmacD, my very thoughts but you got there first!

Brown · Dec 6, 2019

When was young people repaired stuff but it was crap. In the house my mother stuck the peeling wallpaper back up with a mixture of flour and water and coloured in the threadbare patches on worn out carpets with felt pens. Outdoors, my father would butter Isopon into the holes in the family car. Isopon users looked down the people who used Plastic Padding. It's possible, and considered desirable, to work to much higher standards these days. It's easier to find out how to do things, there is a much more comprehensive range of tools available than what was for sale in places like Woolworths or Halfords when I was young. Woolworths drills in particular were either too soft or too brittle to do much serious work, and if you couldn't drill it with a Woolworths drill it generally stayed un-drilled. I can't get over the sheer range of materials I can make holes in these days, with tools that are generally affordable.

Yes of course, those of us who enjoy doing this sort of thing are in a minority. But we always were in a minority. I bet most of the Landyzone regulars are more mechanically adroit than most of our family and friends. And that's how our forebears were able to make a living by sawing wood, knocking nails in and bashing metal for others who were unable and unwilling to do it for themselves.

My Old Landy · Dec 6, 2019

I suppose it is because I come from a long line of engineers that I find it difficult to accept that others are not willing to learn how things work.

Brown said:
Yes of course, those of us who enjoy doing this sort of thing are in a minority. But we always were in a minority. I bet most of the Landyzone regulars are more mechanically adroit than most of our family and friends.

I agree we are in a minority and perhaps always have been.
It can be a curse

but I am glad I don't have to rely on paying people to do most of the things I do

jimmacD · Dec 6, 2019

capo said:
I think that many of us growing up in the 50s/60s/70s were the 'take it apart to see how it works' types. Things were mechanical, clockwork, and here's the crux, repairable. As mentioned above modern consumer items appear to be designed to fail over time (usually a few days after the warranty expires) and furthermore they aren't 'user serviceable' and heavily electronic. So the take-it-apart mentality is not fostered. As @Brown says, there are youngsters capable and willing to make, repair, refurbish and upcycle but I think they are a minority. Long term, blatant consumerism will probably decline and together with increasing austerity that might be the impetus for a return to the days of 'mend and make do'.

Hey @jimmacD, my very thoughts but you got there first!

You are probably right about a return to a pre global consumerism period, especially as we move towards a General Election with environmental issues at the forefront? This topic evolved on another thread, can't remember the original topic but I think the 70s generation are miffed at the new age attitudes, hey lets save the planet and build millions of electric cars..... cos our Parents and Grandparents knackered it by using milk bottles, veg from the garden and walking verywhere!

jimmacD · Dec 6, 2019

Brown said:
When was young people repaired stuff but it was crap. In the house my mother stuck the peeling wallpaper back up with a mixture of flour and water and coloured in the threadbare patches on worn out carpets with felt pens. Outdoors, my father would butter Isopon into the holes in the family car. Isopon users looked down the people who used Plastic Padding. It's possible, and considered desirable, to work to much higher standards these days. It's easier to find out how to do things, there is a much more comprehensive range of tools available than what was for sale in places like Woolworths or Halfords when I was young. Woolworths drills in particular were either too soft or too brittle to do much serious work, and if you couldn't drill it with a Woolworths drill it generally stayed un-drilled. I can't get over the sheer range of materials I can make holes in these days, with tools that are generally affordable.

Yes of course, those of us who enjoy doing this sort of thing are in a minority. But we always were in a minority. I bet most of the Landyzone regulars are more mechanically adroit than most of our family and friends. And that's how our forebears were able to make a living by sawing wood, knocking nails in and bashing metal for others who were unable and unwilling to do it for themselves.

Didn't think about that, we do have access to better products and info.... forums being a brilliant source of help whereas our Parents did cobble stuff, my Mum used to make all her dresses... they were ****e but yu never noticed because everyone else was doing the same. I suppose these days there are no excuses for not doing the job properly and we can forgive the old boy who used newspaper and grout to plug the hole on his old Austin.

jimmacD · Dec 6, 2019

My Old Landy said:
I suppose it is because I come from a long line of engineers that I find it difficult to accept that others are not willing to learn how things work.

I agree we are in a minority and perhaps always have been.
It can be a curse but I am glad I don't have to rely on paying people to do most of the things I do

We had a motor vehicle department at my School in the 70s with an Aston Martin to work on, it wasn't a School for peeps who couldn't read or write but a becon for new ideas and alternatives to formal education. It all changed when somone said "computer programmers can get £40k a year" in the 1980s and we ended up with a generation who could program a computer but know one to build them. I took on a night class for two years in vehicle restoration whilst at Uni which taught me all the techniques for fabrication and welding... as my lecturer said "we will show you how cars used to be made". I don't think manufacturers want the Customer to know how stuff works or how low quality the materials are. Manufacturers are now using obselesence as a marketing tool, save the planet by recycling and buying a replacement!

Brown · Dec 8, 2019

I was just musing this morning about washing machines. There was a time, until about 20 years ago, when I used to try to mend them. I spent ages looking out the kinds of shops in Yellow Pages that might have the parts I needed and riding my bicycle around the place to visit emporia staffed by old men with pencils behind their ears who would say 'sorry squire, haven't seen one of them in years', until I found what I was after. I don't bother now. Not only are parts hard to find for many modern machines, but it isn't worth it because once one thing goes another typically follows shortly after. So you end up replacing all the wear parts at considerably greater expense than if you bought a whole new item. Plus I've come across a number of things, like the drum bearings on some machines, that you cant get out anyway. Well you could, but there'd be a lot of metalworking and fabrication involved. I can get a new machine delivered for £200, so I'm sorry to say in recent years I've taken the latter route.

My Old Landy · Dec 8, 2019

Brown said:
I was just musing this morning about washing machines. There was a time, until about 20 years ago, when I used to try to mend them. I spent ages looking out the kinds of shops in Yellow Pages that might have the parts I needed and riding my bicycle around the place to visit emporia staffed by old men with pencils behind their ears who would say 'sorry squire, haven't seen one of them in years', until I found what I was after. I don't bother now. Not only are parts hard to find for many modern machines, but it isn't worth it because once one thing goes another typically follows shortly after. So you end up replacing all the wear parts at considerably greater expense than if you bought a whole new item. Plus I've come across a number of things, like the drum bearings on some machines, that you cant get out anyway. Well you could, but there'd be a lot of metalworking and fabrication involved. I can get a new machine delivered for £200, so I'm sorry to say in recent years I've taken the latter route.

With washing machines I am the same. I have fixed them in the past but usually it is the pcb that fails. Our current one the relay failed but I managed to desolder it and replace with a named brand one. Once the bearings go, as they are in a plastic housing its time for a new one

kermit_rr · Dec 8, 2019

Things are now designed on computer, by people who have no interest in the intended use of whatever they are designing. They also have no interest in using that they design, or indeed fixing it later. They are just designers, it could be a teapot or a valve to be used on a nuclear power station, it doesn't really matter because it's just numbers on a screen.
And because it's all done on computer, there's no need for tolerance or excess, whereas years ago numbers were calculated by a human, on paper.. where a 1/2" bolt may have held things together, they used 5/8" instead

jimmacD · Dec 8, 2019

kermit_rr said:
Things are now designed on computer, by people who have no interest in the intended use of whatever they are designing. They also have no interest in using that they design, or indeed fixing it later. They are just designers, it could be a teapot or a valve to be used on a nuclear power station, it doesn't really matter because it's just numbers on a screen.
And because it's all done on computer, there's no need for tolerance or excess, whereas years ago numbers were calculated by a human, on paper.. where a 1/2" bolt may have held things together, they used 5/8" instead

jimmacD · Dec 8, 2019

Unfortunately it does seem as though stuff is designed to fail....... RR gearboxes seem a bit like that? I do fix our various appliances and then buy second hand when they are beyond my understanding or just not worth it. My logic is, I also apply it to my vehicles, buy older but better! Don't spend £300 on an 06 Citroen when you can buy a 1994 850 T5. I have appliances which would have cost £500-700 when new but I have never paid more than £80, they tent to last longer than a new cheap bit of kit. It is just like buying antiques! Just replaced my Miele washer after 20 years and several rebuilds, £30 has bought another one and the first has some useful spares.

boguing · Dec 10, 2019

kermit_rr said:
Things are now designed on computer, by people who have no interest in the intended use of whatever they are designing. They also have no interest in using that they design, or indeed fixing it later. They are just designers, it could be a teapot or a valve to be used on a nuclear power station, it doesn't really matter because it's just numbers on a screen.
And because it's all done on computer, there's no need for tolerance or excess, whereas years ago numbers were calculated by a human, on paper.. where a 1/2" bolt may have held things together, they used 5/8" instead

Can't agree with that I'm afraid. Computers in design just help you do stuff faster than you could with paper. No flipping use at all if you don't what you're doing - ask @wammers . And while I think it's true that a nuclear power station designer could probably get a teapot about right in a computer and on paper, I don't think it really ever worked the other way round.

The Sea of understanding

Well-Known Member

Keep breathin'

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Keep breathin'

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Keep breathin'

Very

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads