The old girl wont start for ages when turning over

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this for me. I've had 'Olive' for about 12 years, during this time i've sorted most of her issues out but I'm running out of ideas with this. In order to make sure she starts, warm or cold, unless it's within a couple of minutes, I need to turn it over for 30 seconds or so after heater plugs have done their bit, then another dose of heater plug & turn over to start. First thing on a morning it. takes 2 or 3 goes. I've fitted new heater plugs, no change, & they are working. Pump in tank is working well, I checked.
There are no signs of air in the fuel line, & I've changed the leak off pipes, but not the 1 back to the injector pump, I ran out of pipe! Once started it runs like a dream & pulls like a steam train, very frustrating. The upshot of all the turning over is the need for regular recharging of the battery, even with the brand new battery the symptoms are no different.


Next post is for the Disco.........

Probably the in tank pump not working and it takes time for the fip to pull up the fuel there is a way to check the pump by disconnecting the pipe to fuel filter and see how much fuel is pumped through when the glow plugs are turned on

Yep as overland has said within this period 180 ml should of come out is your tank low or does it happen with a full tank? start here and come back tell us how you get on. Were/ are the glow plugs of a good make this is for cold starting issues , you could of also have the hit staring syndrome staring to appear .

And we have an introduce yourself section best go say hello before your head is ripped off

marvinb said:

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this for me. I've had 'Olive' for about 12 years, during this time i've sorted most of her issues out but I'm running out of ideas with this. In order to make sure she starts, warm or cold, unless it's within a couple of minutes, I need to turn it over for 30 seconds or so after heater plugs have done their bit, then another dose of heater plug & turn over to start. First thing on a morning it. takes 2 or 3 goes. I've fitted new heater plugs, no change, & they are working. Pump in tank is working well, I checked.
There are no signs of air in the fuel line, & I've changed the leak off pipes, but not the 1 back to the injector pump, I ran out of pipe! Once started it runs like a dream & pulls like a steam train, very frustrating. The upshot of all the turning over is the need for regular recharging of the battery, even with the brand new battery the symptoms are no different.


Next post is for the Disco.........

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When you changed the glowplugs, did you use cheapos as they are known to cause problems with cold starting. Hot starting is a known problem believed to be due to timing chain stretch, so you could have 2 problems.
Slow cranking speed is another common cause of poor starting on diesels.
You say you have checked the in tank pump so I have discounted that possibility.
Does it have a power box fitted?
A better intro would be useful, year of car and mileage covered would help diagnosis.
It may need to go on diagnostics to see what is happening with the FIP timing.

Hi everyone, I must firstly apologise, I did try to introduce myself, but didn't realise I'd cocked it up somewhere & it hadn't uploaded. I will address that in a moment.

Thanks for all the advice, here's more car info : It's a circa 1995 car, (the circa is due to it having a chequered history prior to me buying it in 2000 with 68k on it, as a non runner.) It was refusing to start at all hence I purchased it via a friend for £ 1800, with wrong EKA code! Got Becm repaired with EKA code, then had to fit new in tank pump. Never really had any mechanical problems just water pump batteries, brakes etc oh binned the EAS & now on coils with 2 inch lift. nearly forgot, front axle locked solid 2008, mended it with a different one & fitted polybush, new shocks & all steering gear. Drivers door panel has been off for 12 months since lock stopped working, (that's a different saga) BTW this is the fastest P38 I or my friends have ever driven. It's now done 138K. (I bought a really nice P38 Auto with 72K 3 years ago so 'Olive took a back burner for a while, sadly the ex now has that though). I have got the hot start fix on it to sort out warm starting issues that arose. disconnecting this had no effect on current symptoms, so I've reconnected it.

I've disconnected fuel line, (broke push in fitting on filter & effected a temporary repair until I figure out hoe to get the inserted part out of the filter), anyhoo loads of fuel coming from in tank pump & fuel or empty tank makes no difference to symptoms. I'd already bought an in tank pump so currently have a spare.

I changed glow plugs as I thought this may be the issue, mid price ones, checked em before fitting & checked old one too, which seemed OK. I axctually removed manifold to do this, previously I've only ever changed 5 of them due to time constraints & inaccessibility of No 2, but always had the desired result. Also checked the glow plug system is actually powering the plugs, which it is.

I'm thinking the many doses of ignition when cold is engaging the in tank pump in its priming mode & shoving fuel to places where it isn't, but should be, although I see no air in the clear fuel line. could this be the case? I've been musing about the fuel cut off solenoid, but didn't think the symptoms were random enough for it to be sticking, or if it was permanantly stuck it wouldn't start at all? Does this make sense, is it a valid assumption?

I've had lots of issues so far with this car over the years, but still have faith in it, I'm sure after all we've been through this is just another little hurdle to overcome.

Well all I can say for starters can't see how you have bodged the filter pipe unless you have bypassed the filter completely . I would suggest getting a second hand filter housing for starters to insure no air is getting in . Plugs don't last forever Especially cheap ones and you already have an unchanged one and it was years since you changed the in tank pump was it a £40 cheapo or a £150 original as this matters !!

Well all I can say for starters can't see how you have bodged the filter pipe unless you have bypassed the filter completely . I would suggest getting a second hand filter housing for starters to insure no air is getting in . Plugs don't last forever Especially cheap ones and you already have an unchanged one and it was years since you changed the in tank pump was it a £40 cheapo or a £150 original as this matters !!

Hi, I was fortunate enough to find a piece of pipe which slots tightly into both halves of the remaining elbow at the in side of the filter, also a smear of red hermetite. I have the new pipe which I will fit later, once I have time to remove the remaining inserted pipe, the starting issue has not got worse since this repair, I am on the look out for a new housing though I think you got the wrong end of the stick with the glow plugs when i fitted the new plugs a couple of weeks ago I actually did fit all 6, (having only ever fitted 5 in the past). I think back in 2000 the pump cost around £140, I do have a new one but am reluctant to fit it at the moment as it does seem to be pushing a fair amount through & full or empty tank doesn't effect the starting. Do you think the existing pump may not have enough go in it at the priming stage though? I suppose I'm also a little reluctant to swap the pump because it's such a pain in the backside to do & would be really unhappy if it made no difference....

marvinb said:

I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this for me. I've had 'Olive' for about 12 years, during this time i've sorted most of her issues out but I'm running out of ideas with this. In order to make sure she starts, warm or cold,

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hope thats not your mrs you talking about!!

The fuel lift pump only supplies fuel to the injection pump, flow is more important than any pressure but obviously there will be some pressure generated. Pre injection pressure is created inside the injection pump by an HP vane pump controlled by a relief valve. You can guess forever about what is wrong but best thing to do is get some diagnostics on it. Read timing modulation, should be 45 to 55% with a warm engine. More than that means chain is stretched and static timing is out. Main cause of poor hot starting. Poor cold starting maybe down to a failed ECU temp sensor, in which case the ECU will default to a temp of 50 degrees and the glow lamps will not come on for long enough and start fuel will not be set correctly. A combination of that and static timing out will give all kinds of start problems.

As above we told how to test In Tank ability remember ...180ml you still haven't told us what plugs as,members on here have used cheap ones and they have failed within weeks ..and its still guessing games until plugged in without those simple measures

Hi all, yep the pump is shoving quite a bit more than 180ml fluid through, not sure about the glow plugs, (£ 40ish?) i've probably had them a couple of years, I try to keep a set in hand as well as plenty of filters & other stuff, for all the motors in my care so not sure. Out of interest is there anything of a sensible price available I can invest in that I can plug in myself. I appreciate I will have to find someone with the full NASA style kit to identify the current problems, but I'm thinking of something a little less high tech, & more portable, that will plug into TD5 Disco as we now own one of these too, & it has issues rising. I've never missed having this piece of kit, but do see how it will potentially speed things up in the future. I wouldn't mind something I can load onto a laptop & plug in, I could cope OK with that as Son Number 1 is an IT development manager, (or something like that), & could make the techy side of it work & explain it to me :monitor_punch

Bugger, just realised I still haven't done my intro :behindsofa:

marvinb said:

Hi all, yep the pump is shoving quite a bit more than 180ml fluid through, not sure about the glow plugs, (£ 40ish?) i've probably had them a couple of years, I try to keep a set in hand as well as plenty of filters & other stuff, for all the motors in my care so not sure. Out of interest is there anything of a sensible price available I can invest in that I can plug in myself. I appreciate I will have to find someone with the full NASA style kit to identify the current problems, but I'm thinking of something a little less high tech, & more portable, that will plug into TD5 Disco as we now own one of these too, & it has issues rising. I've never missed having this piece of kit, but do see how it will potentially speed things up in the future. I wouldn't mind something I can load onto a laptop & plug in, I could cope OK with that as Son Number 1 is an IT development manager, (or something like that), & could make the techy side of it work & explain it to me :monitor_punch

Bugger, just realised I still haven't done my intro :behindsofa:

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Nathan on here is selling a nanocom set up for TD5 and you could then add the p38 unlock and cable,best of both worlds.

Right the next chapter,took it to see Mark (who came highly recommended to me by a fellow Land Rover owner) & plugged it in, it flags up low fuel pressure in FIP. Fitted in tank pump as we agreed it wouldn't hurt to try & help things out a bit due to the fact I already had a new pump. It doesn't seem to have helped in any significant way, but I wasn't holding my breath. Am I now correct in thinking the next direction to look will be FIP, which will cost zillions of pounds to replace?

It'll probably be cheaper to buy a donor P38 with a good FIP and transfer it over. Then you have a good pool of parts to fix your other issues.

marvinb said:

Right the next chapter,took it to see Mark (who came highly recommended to me by a fellow Land Rover owner) & plugged it in, it flags up low fuel pressure in FIP. Fitted in tank pump as we agreed it wouldn't hurt to try & help things out a bit due to the fact I already had a new pump. It doesn't seem to have helped in any significant way, but I wasn't holding my breath. Am I now correct in thinking the next direction to look will be FIP, which will cost zillions of pounds to replace?

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Recon £600 if removed and fitted about £900

marvinb said:

Right the next chapter,took it to see Mark (who came highly recommended to me by a fellow Land Rover owner) & plugged it in, it flags up low fuel pressure in FIP. Fitted in tank pump as we agreed it wouldn't hurt to try & help things out a bit due to the fact I already had a new pump. It doesn't seem to have helped in any significant way, but I wasn't holding my breath. Am I now correct in thinking the next direction to look will be FIP, which will cost zillions of pounds to replace?

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Make sure its not leaking first, no fractured pipes etc.
I was not aware that there was a "low fuel pressure in FIP" fault
I have not read all the way through but is the filter OK?

Datatek said:

Make sure its not leaking first, no fractured pipes etc.
I was not aware that there was a "low fuel pressure in FIP" fault
I have not read all the way through but is the filter OK?

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Like to know what piece of kit threw that one out. There is no pressure sensor in the pump.

wammers said:

Like to know what piece of kit threw that one out. There is no pressure sensor in the pump.

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Another garage bull****ting then

As I was short on time when he was giving me the info could it have been low pressure at or from the FIP, would that make more sense?

marvinb said:

As I was short on time when he was giving me the info could it have been low pressure at or from the FIP, would that make more sense?

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No pressure sensor there either and they will actually run without the in tank pump as long as the tank is more then a quarter full.