The new defender!

I imagine that the military market has been very important to Land Rover over the years judging by the numerous military variants they have developed, not just as financial income, but improving the image / reputation of the brand.
The ability to develop these comparatively low volume variants was due to the simple and basic nature of the base vehicle and the modular nature of its construction.
I can't see a military version of the new Defender being developed, primarily because the new Defender quite simply is not a Land Rover.

As far as the British military are concerned the ECU in a TD5 Defender was a step too far and they stuck with the 300 Tdi on the grounds that it could be fixed by deployed units. As to LR making a military variant, we need to recognise that the nature of risk acceptance has changed, and soft skinned vehicles will probably not find their way back into an operational area, be that actual combat, stabilisation/reconstruction, or even humanitarian operations where there is a defined IED threat. There is a market for Civilian Armoured Vehicles (CAVs) for the military and OGDs, but while many were converted, the old Defender was not ideal as the space for the driver was too constrained to wear body armour with a full load of ammunition. The 70 Series Land Cruiser "Troopy" has the same problem. The new Defender might find a role as a CAV if they can be converted at a sensible price and as Discos and Range Rovers are commonly converted, this should not be an issue.
The other requirement is for a non-operational utility vehicle. Frankly it would be difficult to see how the new Defender could compete with something like the Ford Ranger or similar, which is rugged, reliable, flexible enough for most uses and a good deal cheaper.

When i went in the tratter cellerbration tour the military option was discussed. They want to pay somewhere between £15k and £15.5k. The same build sold to the public or commercial would be £23k +vat. So military want around 35% discount. Its true military work helped with advertising. Not all designs were taken on like the centaur. So its isn't a guaranteed win. But nowadays lr doesn't need that type of work. It has enough volumn production to be able to choose not to taken those contracts.

The military won't buy a replacement for the Defender. For operational vehicles, they need them to be armoured particularly from land mines. For moving around the UK training areas, they are hiring "white fleet vehicles" mini buses, Hilux's from companies like Interserve (that was the company we used when I was an army MT corporal), for troop transporting, they use coaches or MAN SVs with the troop seats in the back. All Wolfs had been converted to signals use, with permanent Bowman fits in the back. The GS's were either converted or sold to civvies. But even the signals wagons are switching over to the new Bulldog APC. So operationally, there is no need for light unarmoured vehicles like Landys. In day to day activities, "white fleet is used".
The current shrinking fleet of Wolfs, will not be replaced, but that's good for civvies.

Hippo said:

But nowadays lr doesn't need that type of work. It has enough volumn production to be able to choose not to taken those contracts.

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Agreed. LR have positioned themselves in the high profit luxury SUV market and removed themselves from a number of less profitable ones such as military, utility, agricultural, expedition etc. The only issue I have with that policy is that their marketing is still exploiting a heritage they have abandoned as if they were still following it.

Nissan did a similar thing here in Aus back in 2013, their two heavy 4x4's (Pathfinder and Partol) competed with Toyota and Landy in the utilitarian 4x4 market. They changed the Pathfinder to a soft SUV and and the Patrol was also redesigned, both with only a petrol option. Nissan effectively dumped the loyal rural and 4x4 customers that had supported them over so many decades, to compete in the fickle family SUV market.
The Pathy did ok, for the first few months while it was still new, but then Mazda and Subaru upgraded their offerings and now where are virtually no new Pathfinders or Patrols on the road today.
That's the market the new Defender seems to be going for, family SUV customers looking for comfort first with 4x4 capability somewhere down the list. Like the Pathy it is likely to do well initially, but then competitors won't just sit back either, so it will be interesting to see how long the Defender brand will be able to hold it's own in the market.
It may be that the actual offroad credentials are enough to separate it from the pack, which will appeal to those of us looking for 4x4 first and then comfort ... but without any independent tests, we simply don't know, so I for one, simply won't buy.

Amazing how much peeps dislike the new freelander and complain about it. Its early days. Give it a chance.

I don't dislike it, just don't get the whole heritage bollocks when it is a fundamentally different proposition

JimS said:

I don't dislike it, just don't get the whole heritage bollocks when it is a fundamentally different proposition

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Yeah bringing out a new 4x4 is fine, but don't pretend it's a Defender. However, as a new vehicle, like the MINI and Fiat 500, it will probably do well. But unlike the MINI and 500, the new Defender looks nothing like the classic Defender, regardless what people say, it's just an uglier Discovery.

I gave way to one today so I could have another look at it. Still in zebra format.

I wonder, could Land Rover have stuck closer to the design of the old Defender, and made any money out of it.
I take it we wouldn’t be talking live axles, although it could have been a separate chassis.
With regard to body styling l think they could have stayed closer to the look of the original version, but how about the interior?

Perhaps a more basic interior but with proper door seals etc would have worked.

After all, LR already have eight different luxury 4x4 vehicles in their range, it might have been good to have a utility model.

lightning said:

I wonder, could Land Rover have stuck closer to the design of the old Defender, and made any money out of it.
I take it we wouldn’t be talking live axles, although it could have been a separate chassis.
With regard to body styling l think they could have stayed closer to the look of the original version, but how about the interior?

Perhaps a more basic interior but with proper door seals etc would have worked.

After all, LR already have eight different luxury 4x4 vehicles in their range, it might have been good to have a utility model.

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Look at the Suzuki Jimny. It's basically a small Defender. Suzuki took full advantage of the end of the classic Defender.

Indeed they did. I’ve driven the new Jimny and it’s OK
It’s also cheap, well under £20,000 even for the top model, and it’s totally sold out until 2021.

Land Rover missed an opportunity but l imagine they will make more from the new Defender than they would have done from making a Jimny type 4x4.

What a shame they didn’t do it though!

Pappasmurf said:

Look at the Suzuki Jimny. It's basically a small Defender. Suzuki took full advantage of the end of the classic Defender.

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I was looking at a new Jimny yesterday and immediately thought that it's more like a Land Rover than anything Land Rover make these days. It's a bit small, but if it was scaled up 125%, it would be an excellent replacement for the Defender, as it is, it's a great Series 1 80" replacement.
Let's face it, the "Land Rover" is dead, TATA have abandoned the traditional 4x4 market to the Japanese.

I think the new Jimny is a great little 4x4

Not sure why it’s in such short supply though, maybe due to demand in other countries.

We test drove one in the Summer and my missus loved it, was to be her car.
The local dealer couldn’t even take our order.
Bought a TD5 90 instead which cost about the same by the time l’d got it fixed up properly.

Rougharse Racing said:

I was looking at a new Jimny yesterday and immediately thought that it's more like a Land Rover than anything Land Rover make these days. It's a bit small, but if it was scaled up 125%, it would be an excellent replacement for the Defender, as it is, it's a great Series 1 80" replacement.
Let's face it, the "Land Rover" is dead, TATA have abandoned the traditional 4x4 market to the Japanese.

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I'd have a Jimny today if I could, but I reckon I'll wait for the used market to open up.

Is this going to be like the MG - MX5 - we abandon a sector as not profitable and the Japs come along with a decent design and double or treble the size of the market?

rob1miles said:

Is this going to be like the MG - MX5 - we abandon a sector as not profitable and the Japs come along with a decent design and double or treble the size of the market?

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That's one way to look at it too...
Seriously, a lot has been said so far about how people should give the new vehicle a chance and all. The way I see it, almost all of us have an unexplainable attachment to our land rovers, so I imagine for a series or defender owner to see a completely unrelatable concept in what is that new luxury vehicle which is supposed to be the "future" of what they drive now, well it's just a sin!

I live in and work in Africa, where 40 and 50 year old carburettored landrovers serve as the only means of commercial transportation for some rural folk on surfaces that are sure to knock out the suspension bits of any other vehicle in under a week of regular use.

Where old series and defenders are cut up and converted to pickups with giant winches on their backs that tow and recover vehicles 2 or 3 times their own weight.

Where people make and modify their own parts, adapt parts from unrelated vehicles to keep their land rovers going.

I believe that's what we're all talking about here; that heritage that's just lost on this new defender.

No, you certainly cannot fix it yourself when it breaks.

No, it cannot and will not be allowed underground in any of our mines, nor can it survive the torture of being driven on the worst surfaces all year round.

And no, we don't have to allow it to prove itself or to allow it to make a name for itself because it just can't live up to that reputation carved out by the name it wears from its forebears!!

The way i see it the majority of tratter owners are not in love with their tratter. They love the idea of cheap motoring so they don't have to pay for repairs. Whenever they describe their vehicle there's always a glint in their eye when they talk about cost of repairs... nowt to go wrong means cheaper to fix. Lets be honest ere the majority of them would be nissan micra drivers if tratters din't eggsist. Another form of cheap motoring.

I've been driving my Series for 5 years now and I've been suprised at who comes over to talk about it. Some are obvious but really interesting, the number of people in ther 60-70s who drove Land Rovers overland in the 60s and did amazing journeys. I met one guy who drove to India, then round it (27000miles), another who drove the whole of Iran desert prospecting for oil and living in the truck. But I've often been approached by Aisianss and Africans keen to share fond memories about Land Rovers. I was working on it in the street (as usual) and an Indian family pulled up, I thought they wanted directions. The driver (a man in his 40s) wanted to show his family the type of vehicle that he had grown up with and had kept their village connected to the outside world. My local cabbie is from Kashmir and drives a new Merc, but he has a Land Rover in Kashnir as it is the only way to get around, nothing else is strong enough, he talks about the Land Rover, not the Merc. I've had scary looking Afrcan guys come up and touch it with a misty look. There is a huge legacy and fondness and we seem to be throwing it away. Its not just the Japs, look at BL and the Mini - the name given to BMW because it had no value, now look.