Temperemental starting and now dead!

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Hello all, again!

My S3 in the last few months has started to refuse to start sometimes. Either from cold or having stalled mid-run and it has refused to for a number of minutes and numerous attempts. Just when I am red-faced and about to give up it will often start again and then be fine. So this happens from cold and when warm. Mostly the ignition lights will be on and the starter motor will turn over but it will just not catch. I have noticed in the last week in the wet the problem's become much worse and now (as of yesterday) I can't start it at all - turns over but never starts. (FYI, the battery has been eliminated as the cause)

One other symptom which may offer a lead: (What I call) the ignition lights (Alt and Oil) are normally on as I'd expect whilst trying to start it, however, sometimes and often after a few attempts the lights will not be on and there will be no life at all (starter motor not even turning over). As quickly as this problem occurs I have a couple more tries and it's disappeared and the lights have life again and starter motor turns over.

I am thinking this may be an electrical problem and intend to spend tomorrow with my Haynes manual checking the earth from battery, connections to starter motor etc. but before I do that does anyone find these symptoms familiar?

Also, the starter motor is often very sluggish at the start of the key turn. It often gets up to normal speed within 4 or 5 seconds (as long as the battery has plenty of charge). If the starter motor was seized I would expect it to maybe do this the first key turn but subsequent key turns it would be okay from the start - not always the case. I was thinking I may also need to overhaul or replace the starter motor but will check all the cabling first unless told otherwise.

Thanks again,

Andy.
 
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Check the battery leads are not loose and the main live where it goes on to the starter. Also make sure you've got a good connection on the earth lead where it goes to the chassis
 
Petrol or diesel? Intermittent running, especially in the damp, can be caused by faulty HT components. If you can get it running look at the engine in the dark and look for blue sparks - that'll be all your electricity escaping. Or just replace the coil, HT leads, dizzy cap and rotor arm. Might as well fit some electronic sparks at the same time.
Sluggish starting might be shagged starter or poor high current connections. Remake all the connections from battery to solenoid to starter and back through the earth straps. How did you eliminate the battery, 'cos it sounds like it's running down fairly quickly?
 
Petrol or diesel? Intermittent running, especially in the damp, can be caused by faulty HT components. If you can get it running look at the engine in the dark and look for blue sparks - that'll be all your electricity escaping. Or just replace the coil, HT leads, dizzy cap and rotor arm. Might as well fit some electronic sparks at the same time.
Sluggish starting might be shagged starter or poor high current connections. Remake all the connections from battery to solenoid to starter and back through the earth straps. How did you eliminate the battery, 'cos it sounds like it's running down fairly quickly?

I have had (seperate) battery issues and as a result have two batteries now. I have replicated the problem with both AND whilst getting a jump start. They are running down quickly (I suspect a short somewhere) so I wouldn't normally rule those out but the fact that it turns over quick as you like with a booster attached and yet I can still replicate the issue (sometimes no ign. lights and turns over as quick as you like but never fires) made me pretty sure they are not the cause of this specific issue.
 
Check the battery leads are not loose and the main live where it goes on to the starter. Also make sure you've got a good connection on the earth lead where it goes to the chassis

How loose is "loose" on the battery terminals? :D I can remove them by hand (because I have had a seperate battery issue and have needed to swap batteries out whilst testing) but they have good clean connections (and a small smearing of vaseline) and are pressed on snugly.
 
had an almost identical problem with my 2.25 series three turned out to be dodgy ignition switch the live feed to the coil was arcing on and off so would turn over fine but not catch bloody pain to trace not sure if its the same as yours but check the live side of the coil with a simple 12v test light whilst cranking ..two people might be handy good luck
 
How loose is "loose" on the battery terminals? :D I can remove them by hand (because I have had a seperate battery issue and have needed to swap batteries out whilst testing) but they have good clean connections (and a small smearing of vaseline) and are pressed on snugly.

cranking an engine over takes a lot out of the battery so if the terminals are just pushed on that might be your problem,causing it to arc out when trying to crank it over. For what time it takes to tighten them up I'd be doing that first
 
When you next get the problem, push the battery leads hard on to the battery terminals, and twist back and forward 10 or so times (your trying to clean any arcing build up off) or, you could use a bit of fine emery to clean..... But if you are in super market park car, then do previous, Tighten with spanner and try agian. I had same problem when doing a lot of work on my car, turned out to be black build up on leads/terminls as I couldn't be arsed to tighten as i was forever disconnecting battery. Other thing to look if that don't work is solenoid and startmotor cennections
 
I'm just trying to make sense of my wiring looms (amongst the melted cables and 5 layers of leccy tape) and have come to this:
c6efa1e1e1bfcec3e78c6152dbd0a5c9.jpg

It just seems to be a join for the two cables. However, I don't understand why it exists or what it may be doing other than joining them?! It is clamped on by that rust bolt to a metal casing which is over the choke cable. It has a White and Blue cable which runs into the dash and a white and yellow cable which runs from it straight to this point of the engine:
c8fcb66c777ea9fbb55b278795993cf1.jpg

Can someone please tell me what this is?! :5bblush5:

Also, the black elipse is circling this silver yuck which seems to have appeared on my engine over the last fortnight. It may have been something I spilt on it breaking down but I can't recall what it might be and it seems to only be occurring on that specifica part of the engine. Any ideas what it is?
 
Reason I was asking about the wiring on the choke cable was because the White/Yellow wire was disconnected. I've just looked further though and seen the choke cable it is on is not even used anymore. A new one has been installed and the old one (in the picture) just left there. However, shouldn't the new one have this wiring arrangement on it somehow? From quick research it seems like it might be a choke/cold start setup with indicator light on the dash but I didn't even know I had this (well obviously not as it ws disconnected) and don't really know how it works/what it does. Can anyone shed any light on my otherwise dark brain? :D

Oh yeah, I have dismantled the clip now and see the old choke cable had three holes cut in it whchi the wiring clip somehow sat in and used a sprung loaded point to cut itself in or out. I still don't understand how it SHOULD be working though and so don't know how to put in back in place on the new choke cable.

Thanks thanks thanks in advance.

Andy.
 
It's a handy little light to tell you you've left the choke out, Unswitched live to bulb, (white, from back of fusebox to red bulb, rh bottom of speedo) blue and white to switch then then it is shown as black to earth. Not sure about the white/yellow wire 'cos I cant find one on the wiring diagram but the thing it's connected to is described in the parts book as a choke thermostatic switch. I presume it means the red light only comes on when the choke knob is pulled out and the engine is hot enough not to need it. It will only fit the proper landy choke cable.
 
It's a handy little light to tell you you've left the choke out, Unswitched live to bulb, (white, from back of fusebox to red bulb, rh bottom of speedo) blue and white to switch then then it is shown as black to earth. Not sure about the white/yellow wire 'cos I cant find one on the wiring diagram but the thing it's connected to is described in the parts book as a choke thermostatic switch. I presume it means the red light only comes on when the choke knob is pulled out and the engine is hot enough not to need it. It will only fit the proper landy choke cable.

Ah yes! The light which has often had me wondering why it never comes on :doh: :
f6b60a23f696811ac929c3ee2cd24107.jpg


The wiring diagram in my Haynes manual shows the White/Yellow wire as going from the switch (with the White/Blue wire) to a "Switch, Cold Start Thermostat". That's good, at least we are both in the same area.

I have now taken the dash off and can see that what I thought was the old unused choke cable is actually something different - though I don't know what! It is attached to something just above the ignition switch (as per photo):
9ba0b56a0a477c232ec60fdfd4f60c73.jpg


Sorry for the poor photo but the bit you're looking at is the stubby barrel joining the right of the ignition switch at a 45 degree angle. It has a (choke type cable) attached to the back of it which routes through to the engine compartment and it is this which has the switch with the choke & cold start warning lights and the cold start thermostat wired on it. I still don't really understand how the switch on this special cable (with three notches cut into it) is meant to operate. The notches around this mountable switch so that it is not pushed in and is therefore ON. If it doesn't line up with the notches the connection is pushed down and is therefore OFF, the confusing bit is it seems to be built to be static so you decide the ON or OFF position when attaching it but I couldn't really see it switching itself due to anything affecting it? Although maybe a movement of the cable could/would/should affect it?? Hmmmmm :confused:

Anyway, the cable I refer to in the above photo is not connected to anything in the engine anyway, it was just flapping around. I will keep researching all of this but if some bright spark who knows what I'm talking about and has been here before can jump in please do :)
 
I'm starting to wonder whether the 'extra' choke cable I am trying to identify is perhaps the original choke cable and maybe that was situated next to the igniting switch? (I have a 1972 88" 2.25 petrol if anyone can confirm that for me??) Everything I can find points to there just being a single choke/cold start cable and it looks like I have two and the newer one is connected mechanically whilst the older one that remained connected electrically. The current choke cable is on the right hand side of the steering wheel coming out the dash - does that sound orginal or you think someone's bodged a repair job?:doh:
 
I saw a photo (can't find it now but through Google) which showed a choke on the same piece of metal as the ignition switch which I am now pretty sure is what my S3 has had at some point.

It looks as though the choke lever has broken off and so the seperate choke which has been fitted was probably the simplest, most cost-effective solution and having been done as quite a tidy job I think I am happy to continue having the new choke in place. So what I need to do is completely remove the old choke cable and transfer the electrics from it to the new choke cable. This may be a problem as I don't think the new choke cable has the proper sheath on it - which is a must for the mechanical cold-start warning light switch to work. I will continue tomorrow and see if I can easily transfer the sheath or perhaps entire choke cable.
 
The cable with the switch is the original choke cable, someone's bodged a replacement. As the choke cable is pulled back and forward the slider in the solid bit of the cable moves back and forward and operates the switch. There's an alignment procedure in the landy manual.
pdf Land Rover Manuals | Landroverweb.com
594592 is the part number for the cable that fits the steering lock if it's still available.
 
The cable with the switch is the original choke cable, someone's bodged a replacement. As the choke cable is pulled back and forward the slider in the solid bit of the cable moves back and forward and operates the switch. There's an alignment procedure in the landy manual.
pdf Land Rover Manuals | Landroverweb.com
594592 is the part number for the cable that fits the steering lock if it's still available.

Thanks mate, that confirms what I thought. That link is great, why has no-one given me that before? :)

The old choke seems alright but for not having a pull-lever where it should be. I guess it broke off, prompting the bodged replacement. Wonder if I can attach one again or if I'll need to replace the whole thing? ...Will flick through those manuals and see what I can see.
 
What you now need is the parts catalogue and the optional parts catalogue. They're on here somewhere.
 
Back to my starting problem. This video shows what happens with the key turn ...this and not much else :confused:

I have checked all the electric connections as far as I can and they seem good. The earth strap is nicely secured to the battery tray, which in turn is on the chassis and the battery is fully charged (and reading 12.7V).

Any other opinions before I start taking off starter motor to investigate that?

Video is here: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZKxarPsQ4A"]YouTube - VID 00001-20110111-1520.3GP[/nomedia]

Cheers,

Andy.

P.S. Anyone got a spare cold start/choke cable going so I can refit it as original? :)
 
say yer batterys fooked after seein tha
it might be saying its got voltage but as it got any amps in it to throw out?
 
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