TD5 thinks its a TD4...

This is posted on behalf of a friend, thought I would copy it in to see if anyone had any simliar experiences.

It was very hard to start when I tried to set off, and a bit down on power. Smoky on start-up, but that cleared and a good 100.

Following day it was very hard to start, and I had to use the inane fuel system air-purging process. Even at that, hard to start and very smoky exhaust blue-grey smoke.

Drianed a bit of fuel from the filter - water-free.

This morning after some logic thinking, dipped the engine oil and it was WAY over the full mark. Drained out 3/4 gallon of oil........... kinda thin and runny ....... and while I was about it took out the centrifugal filter and renewed it.

Took the cam-cover off to look inside at the 5 injectors, which look more like the top endsm of poppet valves. Could not see anything amiss.

The amount of oil drained out was more or less exactly what one cylinder would have used in 100 miles, bearing in mjind the ineficiency would have been countered by my very gentle driving and modest speeds.

It looks like one injector is dumping into the engine cavity around the cams, all the fuel that injector should squirt into a cylinder.

Which one though?

This leak OUT seems to allow air IN the moment the engine stops, and also to be affecting the air-purging process.

Seen this set of symptoms on a Disco at a local garage recently,it turned out to be the lower copper washer on one of the injectors.While the engine was stopped the fuel drained down into the combustion chamber - lots of smoke on start up.BUT,whilst cranking/running the combustion pressure forced its way back up into the fuel rail causing the engine to stop after about 1 min of running.
I suggest removing the camcover to see if all 5 EUI's are correctly torqued down,then run the fuel pump to look for visible leaks around the EUI's.If the problem still doesnt show then you need to remove them - have a good look at the top O rings and where they sit in relation to the head.(last one I took apart was cracked across where the O ring sat and just filled the sump) If it is the lower copper washer then it should be visible where it leaked.If you cant see any faults the only thing you can try is replacing the washers and O rings and see if it is OK after.
Hopefully that will do it,if not its head off and down to the local engine shop for a pressure test - dont forget to keep the injectors in order.

Thanks 8... have relayed this info...

Further about this stuffed TD5 .... starting requires the fuel system purge process, and even at that it takes a LONG session on the starter to get it to commence firing on ANY cylinders, suggesting (I think) air still in the system. When it starts there's a LOT of smoke from the exhaust (bye-bye cat?) but if I drive the car (a) the smoke clears almost to NONE as long as I keep driving and (b) the power is down like as if one pot isn't working.

Is it possible and injector has cracked? Sealing washer or O-Ring failed?
How could air get IN to the system yet there be little or no suggestion of diesel fuel leaking OUT? But, there may be a small leak of diesel INTO the engine oil, though I have no propof of that yet.

Should I torch the brute and save the fuss?

eightinavee said:

- dont forget to keep the injectors in order.

Click to expand...

Thanks - that is a very thoughful bit of advice ...

I think I will whip them out one at a time and see what there is to see.

Discomania and CharlesY ... because CharlesY isn't yet activated to reply.

PS

Anyone wanna buy a SUPER Disco II TD5 seven-seater gold with towpack at 31k miles with one TEENY WEENY little problem?

Well, Discomania and I took the plunge yesterday, and we took the top off the engine, turned her over (by rolling slowly in gear) to get the camshaft chain-wheel to show the timing mark at the top, stuffed a poly bag around the chainwheel to stop tools dropping into the sump, and pinned the camshaft (used a 6.5mm tommy-bar from a quarter-inch square drive socket set) as recommended to stop it from turning. Why? I don't yet know.

We took off the rocker shaft, and then the middle injector. It dumped a little fuel into the engine, so we sucked that out with a syringe easily enough. Next time I will unplug the fuel pipes as suggested and drain the fuel gallery.

No apparent problem with that injector, so, I cleaned it very carfully, lightly greased the O-Ring and copper-greased the sealing washer, and put it back, and torqued it down. Today I will hoick out the other injectors one by one and see what can be seen, if anything. If nothing, can someone lend me a box of matches please?

Meantime. all helpful suggestions are welcomed.

CharlesY

In addition to all that, we searched the Web and found reference to oil getting into the multiplug that sits under the front right corner of the cam-cover, taking the leads to the injectors. Apparently some of these let oil into the loom and plug which causes all sorts of grief, and the oil can actually flow all the way down the loom into the car!

Anyway, my plug seemed clean and dry so we have ruled that out, and refitted it.

CharlesY

Has anyone taken a Delphi TD5 injector to bits?
They must come apart easily enough. I have stripped heaps of other types of injectors, but not (yet) one of these. The symptoms are heading towards saying one injector has its needle stuck up, letting air of compression INTO the injector body when it is running, while letting the fuel in the common rail drip OUT into a cylinder when it is stopped. Worse, when I switch off, if this is the fault, as the engine free-wheels from running to stopped, the fuel in all injectors is OFF, and so quite a bit of air may be pumped into the rail thus screwing up the next start-up.

It should be under warranty ... they can have it once I have finished working it out.

Any dealers out there want a profitable warranty job?

CharlesY

Are you sure its not the lower copper washer leaking ? this is much more likely to cause the air getting back into the rail,from memory of the exploded diagram of an EUI even if the needle were stuck open I dont think there is much of a way back through.Dont even try taking it apart unless you are going to condemn it to scrap - they are very complex,fuel shops themselves are still in a learning curve with reconning them - many still cant test them yet.The Test bench to run them is a big investment,I know someone who has just bought one.

Well Guys,
We may have some good news (as if anything about a TD5 engine could be) in that it is running now. The weather cleared and a chum turned up, and we set about having each injector out, in turn. The last one out was #3, and at that time I still had #2 on the bench too.

CRITICAL examination of the lower copper seating washer on Injector #3 suggested that all might not be well, in that the shiny seating surfaces were not "concentric" and there was some black staining way out on the outer edge of the washer. Black there almost certainly means gas from the cylinder reaching the fuel gallery. Of course I didn't have any spares as all LR places are shut for the month.

I took the washer off VERY carefully using a very sharp Gerber knife and a 4-ounce hammer. Under the washer there had clearly been a build-up of carbon in the recess of the lower end of the injector. I took most of that out so that I could be sure the injector would bottom-out on re-fitting. Cleaned all carefully.

I rubbed the washer very gently on a extremely fine flat file in all directions just enough to take off the black stains both sides, to leave it looking matt, and leaving it chemically clean.

Then I found a tube of red Hermetite - an old tube so the stuff was nice and gooey. I filled the lower recess of the injector with this, and set it aside to dry off a bit. During this time I prepared the rest of the bits for reassembly - cleaning, and putting some molygrease (Rocol MT-LM assembly grease) on all 15 cam lobes to make sure they are lubed on start-up. After a little time I rubbed a trace (just enough to wet it with red) of Hermetite Red on both sides of the washer, and re-fitted the washer the way it had come off. Pressed it on firmly with fingers and wiped off the excess with a clean cloth. Used an airline jet to blast out the lower seat in the head (goggles a MUST), visually checked to make sure no bits of carbon were there, and refitted the injector, torquing down to 24 lb-ft and then a tad more - several times for each injector to seat them good and firm. The injector clamps are ludicrous, and obviously pose an ongoing risk of future washer failures. It's just a lousy idea, and lousy engineering practice, but, it is a LandRover design .....

Put it all back together.

What a trouble "bleeding" the thing, but .... it eventually started, not a lot of smoke, and has run 10 miles in two jumps since, running well, and starting reasonably.

If it starts tomrrow morning I will be VERY happy.

A million thanks to Eightinavee, from whom I am going to buy a whole pile of injector seating washers and O-Rings very soon!

Naturally, the washer are an odd size, 17.5mm ouside, 7mm inside, and 1mm thick.

CharlesY

Thank God that was all it was,Td5's arent that bad - once you get used to them.

It started well this evening, when quite cold, and five hours after last running.
Imagine being thrilled that the engine of a less than three-year-old car actually started running! It could only happen to a LandRover. I thought the fuel pump made less of a squishing noise too, but I guess sometimes it makes more noise than other times.

If it starts properly tomrrow morning I will be VERY happy.

A million thanks to Eightinavee, from whom I am going to buy a whole pile of injector seating washers and O-Rings very soon!

Look out ten of each Mr Eightinavee, and let me know the cost please.

Meantime if anyone else has similar problems, I can assure TD5 owners that taking out injectors and replacing these sealing washers and O-Rings is EASY for any careful home mechanic. If there's any interest in having it done, I would be happy to write a "manual" for the job, as the Official Version is confused, and confusing. It would go on one side of A4 plus a few diagrams. Roy could let me know about this.

CharlesY


CharlesY[/quote]

Another day, and all is working well.
It starts just as well as it ever did, as if nothing had ever been wrong.

ONE little horrible copper washer leaking gas into an injector and the entire fuel system brought down a thirty-grand car.

But it is a LandRover, so that will be OK ...

I would like Eightinavee to email me direct please - I want to do business.

[email protected]

CharlesY

More news, not good perhaps.
Yesterday, started fine. Drove 6 miles. Stopped for lunch. Would not start. Fuel pump noise very sloshy indeed. Tank about quarter full. Tipped in a 10 litre can of clean fuel. Eventually got it running. Went to garage to fill 50 more litres without stopping engine. had to jemmy the fuel flap open as it won't open unless the key is OFF ... Ggrrrrrr............... broke the plastic retaining latch ... GGGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr .... Now fuel pump NOT making sloshing noises, and starting fine again. maybe a problem in or near the pump?

The fuel filter is barely 1,000 miles since replaced.

Now I know why they named these cars "Discovery". It's because you get so many chances to make a new Discovery of another mysterious fault.

CharlesY