suspension: SafariGard or Scorpion ?

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Can anyone direct me to any comparison tests between SafariGard &
Scorpion suspensions? Also first hand experience/advice would be
appreciated.

I'm planning to upgrade the suspension on my 95 Defender 110 Station
Wagon for driving off-road. For the past 10 years I've been using OME
springs and shocks on this vehicle but now I need a bit more clearance
and wheel articulation.

I am particularly interested in how these extreme suspension mods may
affect the vehicle's handling on hard surface roads. I suspect some
negative effect ... but will the vehicle become tipsy on the curves?
:p

 
Beeps Hi,

Before we start discussing about the various options you can have in
relation to choosing a long travel suspension kit please be advised that I
represent Scorpion Racing in Greece and therefore I do have a connection
with them.
Regardless of the above though the main scope of everybody on this list (the
undersigned included) is to provide the best possible assistance to fellow
LR enthusiast, so in this scope I will try and provide as much input as I
can.

First of all you will have to decide on how you will be using your Landy
from now on.

A 110 is by definition not a trialing machine.
If you plan on using your 110 for long trips on roads or paved gravel road
or medium offroading excursions at medium to relatively high speeds (up to
65 to 70 mph) I would recommend that you do NOT fit a suspension lift kit.
A good proposal is to fit a suspension kit which will move the downwards
travel of your shocks even lower. This is called the EVO kit. In this way
you will gain a bit of downwards travel (the one that mainly matters when
contact to the ground and therefore mobility and traction are required) but
it will not increase the height of your vehicles center of gravity and will
not affect in any negative way your straight line stability, increase the
body roll when turning and increase the vehicle's already sensitive nature
on crosswinds.
Also remember that a relatively higher vehicle is more unstable when the
road is slippery.

This sort of kit is not expensive and you can use it with your existing
shock absorbers and coil springs if they are OK.
It also comes complete with the required coil springs relocation and
securing kit and longer brake hoses (you will read further down why)

From my point of you this is a solution with no drawbacks (apart from having
to buy the kit) but providing a good upgrade on your vehicle's offroading
capability.

-----------

Increasing the suspension's height will also result in additional expenses
if you wish to retain the factory set front axle and steering geometry.
Fitting longer suspension bits (coils and shocks) results in upsetting the
castor angle which is responsible for how much "feel" you get from your
steering wheel and how effective the self centering characteristics of the
steering system are (namely the steering wheel will tend to be much slower
into returning to the center position when the vehicle is on the move and
you turn it left or right)
In order to remedy this problem you will have either to change the chrome
balls with ones with the castor angle corrected or change your radius arms
(the bars that run parallel to the chassis and connect the chassis to the
front axle, or change the bushes of those arms connecting them to the axle
with modified ones which are eccentric. The cheapest solution is the third
one but it is the least effective and the fastest one to go wrong or need
replacement. The one that is usually adopted is the replacement of the
radius arms.

One more drawback of increasing the suspension's height is that there is a
VERY strong possibility that you will end up upsetting the angle of rotation
of the propshaft (the axle that transmit the power from the center
differential and transfer box unit to the front axle). As a result you will
feel that the vehicle moves with increased vibration and this may eventualy
result into damaging the universal joints and/or the splined section of the
propshaft, the front diff's and transfer box's flanges, bearings and finally
if not addressed in time the diff units themselves.
The remedy is to replace the propshaft with another one with increase angle
of rotation (yoke) or a double cardan one as fitted to the Discovery S2
generation of vehicles from the factory (non genuine LR units are available
from a few sources apart from SR themselves)

Of course let's not forget that increasing the suspension height will also
DEMAND a necessary replacement of the brake hoses with longer ones
especially if you plan on making use of the increased suspension's travel
downwards. Not replacing them may end up in you being stranded with a
raptured brake hose pulled out of is caliper.

--------------

More extreme suspension kits (like the extreme from Scoprion Racing, or
Equipe, the three links front axle kit from Safari Gard or G2F) will
definately require the above modifications to the radius arms (the SG and
G2F kits include them while the SR and Equipe ones do not) the rear axle's
trailing arms (SR and Equipe kits include those while SG and G2F not
necessarely so) and BOTH propshafts front and rear (no kit includes those).
Replacement brake hoses are provided with the G2F, the Scorprion Racing and
the Equipe kits.

---------------

As for upsetting road manners ALL those kits do have negative effects on the
stability of your vehicle and according to my point of view should only be
used off the road. The only exception being the shock absorbers lowering kit
without suspension height increase. (the EVO kit)

All other suspension kit (including the VERY popular +2" suspension lift
coil springs and shock absorbers kits have negative effects on your
vehicle's stability and could therefore lead into a serious life threatining
situation which would have been altogether avoided if the car was sitting at
its factory specified suspension and bodyshell height.



I am sorry for the lenght of this posting but I tried to provide you with a
detailed reply, at least as much as my knowledge on this topic allows.

Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE




<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can anyone direct me to any comparison tests between SafariGard &
> Scorpion suspensions? Also first hand experience/advice would be
> appreciated.
>
> I'm planning to upgrade the suspension on my 95 Defender 110 Station
> Wagon for driving off-road. For the past 10 years I've been using OME
> springs and shocks on this vehicle but now I need a bit more clearance
> and wheel articulation.
>
> I am particularly interested in how these extreme suspension mods may
> affect the vehicle's handling on hard surface roads. I suspect some
> negative effect ... but will the vehicle become tipsy on the curves?
> :p
>



 
Thanks Pantelis for your very thoughtful and helpful response!! It's
given me a lot to ponder!

I knew a lot of this already but this doesn't deter from the usefulness
of the information provided. I didn't know of the EVO kit and I'm
looking into that now. So thanks again!

Actually I've been driving the Defender for about 10 years with the OME
springs & shocks (maybe 1.5 inch lift?) and I have to say that this
suspension (with my V8 tuned for torque) brought the stock vehicle
"alive". It's really a pleasure to drive on and off-road. And frankly
I think it corners better on the hard surface than it did with the
stock suspension. I could have bought a new Defender some time ago but
this one is really too much fun to drive.

Also I've three other 4WD vehicles which I've upgraded (2 Jeep
Wranglers and a HiLux) with OME suspension kits. In one of the Jeeps I
experienced the viabration which you referred to and it was a pain to
resolve, requiring new driveshafts, shorter transmission output yoke,
replacing bushings and lowering the transmission and some other odds
and ends. So I'm aware that I may run into these problems if I lift
the Defender any further.

These vehicles aren't used for rock-crawling. I suppose the better
description of their use would be "expedition & work" in tropical
jungle type terrain including mountains, river fording, mud, clay,
thick dust, driving over irrigation ditches and rice-paddy field dikes,
etc etc ... However about 50% of driving time is on hard-surfaced roads
at reasonably high speeds (50-65 mph) for a defender and perhaps 25% is
on rough corrugated dirt & stone (semi hard) surface while the
remaining 25% is on the rough stuff. One of the biggest problems I have
driving in the "field" is bottoming out when driving on hard clay roads
that have been deeply rutted by large trucks when the roads were muddy.
These deeply rutted roads can sometimes go for miles. This, plus the
rocky streams (with the occasional hidden boulder) and the irrigation
ditches make me sometimes wish for a different suspension with a bit
more clearance perhaps. The Defender already has full underbody
protection, locking diffs, and stronger half-shafts.

About once a year the Defender is used for two or three weeks in rather
extreme off-road driving conditions, i.e. no road for all practical
purposes. And where bridging ladders, axe, shovel, winches, ropes and
pulleys and high-lift jack are used regularly. I once got this Defender
stuck under a huge house-sized boulder when I was trying to inch around
it's downside on a steep mountain slope. Airing the tyres down was the
way out.

As this Defender ages, it is increasingly becoming reserved for the
most difficult trips, while the HiLux is used for the easy trips. The
Wranglers are "camp vehicles".

I would like for the suspension on the Defender to be a bit more
capable and perhaps another inch in ground clearance ... but I don't
want an unstable vehicle on the hard surface roads. Thus the dilemma.

 
Beeps Hi again,

I guess one solution would be for you to fit slightly larger tyres so as to
gain the ground clearance where it really counts and namely not only on
chassis/bodyshell distance from the ground but also and more importantly on
distance from the lower mechanic points those being the diffs on the front
and rear axle.

The only drawback of increasing the diameter of the tyres will be that your
gearing will get a bit taller resulting into losing on acceleration and
torque applicable on the ground but then again you will maybe gain on top
speed and fuel economy when travelling at speed.
The V8 is a quite torquey engine so I do not believe that you will have a
big problem on pulling power and torque.
But if it happens you can always either use a lower geared transfer box
(there is a 1.667:1 geared variant) or fit a pair of CWP sets therefore
restoring your gearing.

Take care
Pantelis

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks Pantelis for your very thoughtful and helpful response!! It's
> given me a lot to ponder!
>
> I knew a lot of this already but this doesn't deter from the usefulness
> of the information provided. I didn't know of the EVO kit and I'm
> looking into that now. So thanks again!
>
> Actually I've been driving the Defender for about 10 years with the OME
> springs & shocks (maybe 1.5 inch lift?) and I have to say that this
> suspension (with my V8 tuned for torque) brought the stock vehicle
> "alive". It's really a pleasure to drive on and off-road. And frankly
> I think it corners better on the hard surface than it did with the
> stock suspension. I could have bought a new Defender some time ago but
> this one is really too much fun to drive.
>
> Also I've three other 4WD vehicles which I've upgraded (2 Jeep
> Wranglers and a HiLux) with OME suspension kits. In one of the Jeeps I
> experienced the viabration which you referred to and it was a pain to
> resolve, requiring new driveshafts, shorter transmission output yoke,
> replacing bushings and lowering the transmission and some other odds
> and ends. So I'm aware that I may run into these problems if I lift
> the Defender any further.
>
> These vehicles aren't used for rock-crawling. I suppose the better
> description of their use would be "expedition & work" in tropical
> jungle type terrain including mountains, river fording, mud, clay,
> thick dust, driving over irrigation ditches and rice-paddy field dikes,
> etc etc ... However about 50% of driving time is on hard-surfaced roads
> at reasonably high speeds (50-65 mph) for a defender and perhaps 25% is
> on rough corrugated dirt & stone (semi hard) surface while the
> remaining 25% is on the rough stuff. One of the biggest problems I have
> driving in the "field" is bottoming out when driving on hard clay roads
> that have been deeply rutted by large trucks when the roads were muddy.
> These deeply rutted roads can sometimes go for miles. This, plus the
> rocky streams (with the occasional hidden boulder) and the irrigation
> ditches make me sometimes wish for a different suspension with a bit
> more clearance perhaps. The Defender already has full underbody
> protection, locking diffs, and stronger half-shafts.
>
> About once a year the Defender is used for two or three weeks in rather
> extreme off-road driving conditions, i.e. no road for all practical
> purposes. And where bridging ladders, axe, shovel, winches, ropes and
> pulleys and high-lift jack are used regularly. I once got this Defender
> stuck under a huge house-sized boulder when I was trying to inch around
> it's downside on a steep mountain slope. Airing the tyres down was the
> way out.
>
> As this Defender ages, it is increasingly becoming reserved for the
> most difficult trips, while the HiLux is used for the easy trips. The
> Wranglers are "camp vehicles".
>
> I would like for the suspension on the Defender to be a bit more
> capable and perhaps another inch in ground clearance ... but I don't
> want an unstable vehicle on the hard surface roads. Thus the dilemma.
>



 
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