Strange clutch behaviour.

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dag019

dag019

Well-Known Member
Posts
5,472
Location
Warwick
I have a 200tdi (disco) 110, with lt77 gearbox. It is currently fitted with a 130 clutch, hd (full metal) release bearing, hd clutch fork, and Lucas trw master and slave.
I drove from the midlands to Bodmin (for work) today with no issue and this evening on driving to the hotel began to get odd clutch symptoms I cannot immediately identify. The clutch bite point seems to drop, and I struggled to change gear as if the clutch was not fully disengaging. Pumping the pedal made little difference but may have helped very slightly. My first though was a fluid leak and air in the system, but on inspection there is no obvious leak and no fluid loss.
I did think it may be the clutch fork pivot issue but I have a had fork fitted and One thing I did notice is it is worst when first starting off a journey, after a little while of driving it seems to improve although not back to normal. If it was the clutch fork failing I do not believe this would be the case.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
I am loathe to buy a clutch kit and the hydraulic parts if I do not need them. But equally if that is what it needs I will see if I can get my hands on some tomorrow And spend the bank holiday dropping the gearbox to change the clutch.
 
You could try removing the clutch master inspection plate and seeing how much free play there is, it should be practically nothing just a mill or so clearance between the pushrod and the master piston. The push rod nut may have come loose. Somebody tickling the clutch pedal whilst you look at the pushrod will show up too much free play.
Bit of a bigger to get at the push rod nuts though...I have a modded spanner but it's still tight in there. Holding the clutch pedal down helps iirc.
 
My experience of clutch fork fail was it just went, there was no intermittent difficulty it was just gone and I drove home by carefully timing the changes.
Clutch master may have an internal fail of the seal allowing fluid to pass to each side of the piston but not leek, check the footwell though.
Typed this before Flossie posted.
 
I am glad people are going for hydraulic, that is far easier than the internals of the clutch. I also may have cylinders on the shelf as spares, but would have to check once home. I am driving back from bodmin today but I am not too worried about that as nearly the whole journey is in 5th on the motorway.
I will check the master push rod (I also have said specially modified slim line spanner). If that is correctly set and there is not free play, is there nay way to check if it is internal bypass or am I just in the region of replacing the cylinders and seeing if there is an improvement?
 
You could remove the slave and clamp it at various positions of its travel then see if there is any pedal creep, but for the cost of clyniders may be just as well replace them if they are old.
But be prepared for more as it could as easily be worn fingers etc. How old is the clutch assembly? I'm guessing not very as you know what is in there so fingers crossed for hydraulic
 
To check for internal seal fail clamp off the flexi pipe going to slave and press pedal. If it goes down and there is no leek then master main seal is gone.
Before you do that have a look at the flexi while someone presses the pedal, there may be ballooning of the pipe.
 
I changed my clutch in December 2017 and replaced the master and slave cylinders at the same time. For several weeks I could never seem to get the adjustment right. I suffered from a bite point that kept getting lower and lower, and difficult or sometimes even impossible gear changes. Eventually it settled down and I lived with it for about a year and a half until I had occasion to remove the gearbox again. This time because I'd dropped the filler plug inside the mechanism and had to dismantle the gearbox to get it out. The rubber seal on the slave cylinder was wet with something that might have been brake fluid. I got a new one and things were instantly much better. No adjustment needed, it just worked. So a poor cylinder can cause the symptoms you describe, and it doesn't necessarily look like it's obviously leaking. This was a TD5, but similar to this it turned out to be a hydraulic problem causing anomalies with the bite point and poor gearchanging.
 
Kev12 said:
How old is the clutch assembly?
Click to expand...

The clutch was replaced last time I had the gearbox reconditioned about 60k ago, but that was only about 2.5 years.

Flossie said:
You could try removing the clutch master inspection plate and seeing how much free play there is, it should be practically nothing just a mill or so clearance between the pushrod and the master piston. The push rod nut may have come loose.
Click to expand...

There is no play between the pedal and the push rod, the nuts are still tight.

9DEF1F2B-3D51-4DD8-98A0-4F95DABBB675.jpeg

tottot said:
check the footwell though.
Click to expand...
The footwell is dry, have had the failure before but no this time, also no noticeable fluid loss


Hicap phill said:
How close is the flexi to the exhaust pipe?
Click to expand...

it is far enough away form the exhaust that this is not going to be causing any issues, but it nicely tucked behind it to make getting a set of clamps onto the pipe very very difficult.

tottot said:
To check for internal seal fail clamp off the flexi pipe going to slave and press pedal. If it goes down and there is no leek then master main seal is gone.
Before you do that have a look at the flexi while someone presses the pedal, there may be ballooning of the pipe.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I cannot see enough of the flexi without removing the slave, and or removing a section of exhiast so have not done that. i did try clamping it which made no differance but as mentioned above is hidden behind an exhaust section making it diffuclt to get a clamp in place, so may have bene user error and not fully clamped.


Brown said:
I got a new one and things were instantly much better.
Click to expand...
I think this is going to be my plan, annoyingly I have a master on the shelf but not a slave so it will have to waiting until the slave has arrived. I have ordered a full set and a spare slave to keep my garage stock up to date and will replace both and see if that resolves things. In the mean time it appears to have fixed itself, (which is worrying) as currently is driving normally again. I will just monitor it things until I get the replacement in, and hopefully it is a hydraulic issue and replacing the cylinders will solve the issue.
 
dag019 said:
The clutch was replaced last time I had the gearbox reconditioned about 60k ago, but that was only about 2.5 years.



There is no play between the pedal and the push rod, the nuts are still tight.

View attachment 234942


The footwell is dry, have had the failure before but no this time, also no noticeable fluid loss




it is far enough away form the exhaust that this is not going to be causing any issues, but it nicely tucked behind it to make getting a set of clamps onto the pipe very very difficult.



Unfortunately I cannot see enough of the flexi without removing the slave, and or removing a section of exhiast so have not done that. i did try clamping it which made no differance but as mentioned above is hidden behind an exhaust section making it diffuclt to get a clamp in place, so may have bene user error and not fully clamped.



I think this is going to be my plan, annoyingly I have a master on the shelf but not a slave so it will have to waiting until the slave has arrived. I have ordered a full set and a spare slave to keep my garage stock up to date and will replace both and see if that resolves things. In the mean time it appears to have fixed itself, (which is worrying) as currently is driving normally again. I will just monitor it things until I get the replacement in, and hopefully it is a hydraulic issue and replacing the cylinders will solve the issue.
Click to expand...
Fingers crossed, if it mechanical its unlikely to come and go like a hydraulic problem can
 
I'd be looking at the hydraulic circuit, seems like fluid is blowing past the seals. Could be coming and going as the heat changes.
 
Quick update for progress, apologies this has taken longer than expected but on removing the master cylinder I managed to get a nice large squirt of brake fluid straight into my eye and received chemical burns to my cornea. Trip to A&E later for a thorough eye wash and scrubbing of my eye ball with what I can only describe as cotton buds, I have recovered enough that I can now open my eye and see out of it (once it is fully healed I will know if my sight has been effected but so far it is looking fairly good).

Yesterday managed to replace the slave and the master and just have to bleed the system today. It is looking probably that is was a hydraulic issue, the fluid was very black, and the slave cylinder in particular has a slimy black residue around the end of the bore once you removed the dust seal. I will find out shortly when my assistant returns to help with the bleeding.
 
Lucky escape there dag if no long term damage, hope you recover well.
Must have been some pressure in the system for it to squirt out like that, a sign of blocked passage ways due to seal break up. Cheers,Tot.
 
Well having gravity bled the system I still have a dragging clutch. I am awaiting an assistant to be able to "pressure" bleed the system the old fashioned way using the pedal. (the easy bleed will not seal against the master for some reason).

If this does not fix the problem is this likely to be pointing to a new clutch and splitting the box? I looked up what what I fitted last time:
upload_2021-4-11_14-43-5.png

This was fitted almost exactly two years ago and 55k miles ago. To me that seems like a short life for a clutch, I do not do an excessive amount of towing although when I do it is heavy.
 
I once picked up a coil of heavy 3 phase armoured cable, multistrand stuff( end was bared, think of a shaving brush but copper strands instead of hoss hair) dunno how it happened it was very quick but the bared cable end flicked up and hit me square in the eyeball, lots of sparks? Electrical type flash's? In my vision.
Drove watery eyed to A&E where it was discovered I had punchered my eyeball and it had gone flat.:eek:.
Some cream and pain killers and it fixed itself.
 
I reckon Hicap phil is on the right tracks with bulging/squishy hose.
Is the turbo heatshield still fitted?
 
lynall said:
I reckon Hicap phil is on the right tracks with bulging/squishy hose.
Is the turbo heatshield still fitted?
Click to expand...
I did get a new flexi but did not fit it as the old one looked in reasonable condition. I will fit the flexi and retry.
 
lynall said:
I reckon Hicap phil is on the right tracks with bulging/squishy hose.
Is the turbo heatshield still fitted?
Click to expand...
Definitly not the hose. Have just replaced it (annoyingly) as the old hose was braided and the replacement is standard. In dismantling the braided hose as come apart at the unions so fitted the new replacement. Would also explain why I could not clamp it off to Test the hydraulics. But definitely not an issue with a bulging hose. will rebleed and see what the result is.
 
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