Stolen 90's back!!!

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On or around Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:45:43 +0000, Mother <"@ {mother}
@"@101fc.net> enlightened us thusly:

>On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:54:46 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Trouble is you once societies gone soft it's very difficult to go back
>>to stricter times.

>
>I don't follow the 'we must get stricter' arguments I hear each and
>every week. I think there's something more fundamental, something to
>do with values and standards. You can have a soft and secure society.


it's called a lack of respect. visible all over the place, unfortunately.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Festina Lente" (Hasten slowly) Suetonius (c.70-c.140) Augustus, 25
 
Mother" <"@ {mother} @ wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:24:03 GMT, "GbH" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I see, you're saying the constabulary has some other source of
>> income than what the exchequer pay. Interesting, tell us what it
>> might be?

>
> I thought I just did.


> If "we" who pay for the police had to pay for
> everything that the police do, we'd be paying somewhere in the
> region of 8 times as much - covering the recovery of private vehicles,
> paying for high level police presence at football matches, on a
> weekend in every city centre, at rallies and demonstrations, rock
> concerts...


Sorry I read that "if we who pay for the police had to pay for everything" as we
weren't paying for everything!! Suggesting they must be getting 7/8? of their
income elsewhere. A distinctly worrying idea. 7/8 of police income comes from
sources other than the public purse. Pretty rampant corruption! Any "other" police
income is questionable!

--
"He who says it cannot be done is advised not to interrupt her doing
it."

If at first you don't succeed,
maybe skydiving's not for you!


 
Lee_D <[email protected]> wrote:

> William Tasso <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
> about:
>> Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:43:14 -0000, "Lee_D"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> my street is
>>>> self policing... I should be sending a bill somewhere.
>>>
>>> There is a very strong argument that gated communities who employ
>>> their own security should be given rebates.

>>
>> Aye and folk without children too.
>>
>>> This is NOT my argument,
>>> by the way.

>>
>> indeed.

>
> Thats odd...news.individual didn't show Martyns post...least not here
> anyway. Hope this isn't a new trend :-(


Well, I'm using that same service and it (obviously) made it here.
However, there have been a few net-hiccups this evening ... posts headers
ok, no content which is possibly more irritating. Also a few posts seem
to be constantly 'unread' - well for several re-reads.

maybe something up in Deutchland - I'd assumed a client glitch

--
William Tasso
 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:17:22 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>I don't follow the 'we must get stricter' arguments I hear each and
>>every week. I think there's something more fundamental, something to
>>do with values and standards. You can have a soft and secure society.

>
>it's called a lack of respect. visible all over the place, unfortunately.


Yes, but the 'respect' agenda has been hijacked to become more of a
punitive social order / control debate - and feck-all to do with
values and and standards IMO. I have absolutley no idea how a society
can expect people to show respect for others when they have no respect
for themselves. There are two ways of getting people to do what you
want them to do;

Offer them something nice as an incentive
or
Remove something from them if they do not comply

I see too much removal of liberty in one sense or another an all too
little reward (and in this sense, 'reward' need not be directly
tangible in any commonly accepted sense).

I firmly believe the greatest reward for all of us, is 'collective
harmony'.


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005
 
Mother wrote:
>
>
> I firmly believe the greatest reward for all of us, is 'collective
> harmony'.
>
>


I could live under the rule of a benevolent dictator if that was
his/hers belief.

You get my vote for world leader......
 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:16:20 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Thats odd...news.individual didn't show Martyns post...least not here
>anyway. Hope this isn't a new trend :-(


So do I. 'specially as I post via NIN :)

 

William Tasso wrote:

> Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote:
>
> > There is a very strong argument that gated communities who employ
> > their own security should be given rebates.

>
> Aye and folk without children too.


Why??!

Because they need the money to pay for their old folk homes where they
die miserable, bitter selfish old gits perhaps? (I've spent too much
time in these places as you can tell, wife used to work in one ;-)

Perhaps you think that the sixty odd pounds a month the goverment gives
parents per child is more than adequate to cover the child's entire
costs?

A little forward thinking here would show that children grow up and
work, pay their taxes and contribute towards a stable economy, more
than "paying for themselves" in the long run. Therefore those who do
decide to have children help the country financially, and you're
suggesting that parents should be penalised even though they are
financially poorer because they've had children.

Now, if you were to talk about how our labour goverment has screwed
things up so that WORKING families and individuals are the ones paying
to encourage single parent families and made it possible for people to
be better off on the dole rather than working then I'd understand your
feelings. But I'll take offence to the suggestion I make a profit from
the goverment paying me to be a parent, the goverment will get far, far
more back from my children than it will ever pay me.

Regards

William MacLeod

 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

< snip >
> Now, if you were to talk about how our labour goverment has screwed
> things up so that WORKING families and individuals are the ones paying
> to encourage single parent families and made it possible for people to
> be better off on the dole rather than working then I'd understand your
> feelings. But I'll take offence to the suggestion I make a profit from
> the goverment paying me to be a parent, the goverment will get far, far
> more back from my children than it will ever pay me.
>
> Regards
>
> William MacLeod


Well said Willie.
Badger.


 
[email protected] wrote:
>But I'll take offence to the suggestion I make a profit from
> the goverment paying me to be a parent,


I just remind arseholes like that that the "government" only has my
money, and your money. There is no possibility of profit, only slightly
less loss.

Steve
 
On or around Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:28:28 +1300, Brian <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Mother wrote:
>>
>>
>> I firmly believe the greatest reward for all of us, is 'collective
>> harmony'.
>>
>>

>
>I could live under the rule of a benevolent dictator if that was
>his/hers belief.


I've long thought that benevolent dictatorship or monarchy are probably the
best form of government. The difficulty is when you get the wrong
dictator/monarch. At least with the current system we get a chance to
change the people in power (although it doesn't seem to work reliably. Try
to find anyone who'll admit to voting for the current bunch... but they're
still in power) every so often.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16
 
On or around 19 Jan 2006 14:22:11 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>A little forward thinking here would show that children grow up and
>work, pay their taxes and contribute towards a stable economy, more
>than "paying for themselves" in the long run. Therefore those who do
>decide to have children help the country financially, and you're
>suggesting that parents should be penalised even though they are
>financially poorer because they've had children.


Mind, there's also the fact that the world population is rapidly becoming
unsustainable.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"'Tis a mad world, my masters" John Taylor (1580-1633) Western Voyage, 1
 
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> William Tasso wrote:
>
>> Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote:
>>
>> > There is a very strong argument that gated communities who employ
>> > their own security should be given rebates.

>>
>> Aye and folk without children too.

>
> Why??!


Because they don't make use of schools - is how the argument usually goes
I believe.

> Because ...
>
> Perhaps ...


hrmm - I think my post has been taken out of context ("There is a very
strong argument ... should be given rebates") and I would be grateful if
you'd hold back from 2nd guessing my opinions. With 4 kids, I'll leave
you to decide how accurate you have been with your analysis.

Toodle pip.
--
William Tasso
 
In message <[email protected]>
Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:17:22 +0000, Austin Shackles
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>I don't follow the 'we must get stricter' arguments I hear each and
> >>every week. I think there's something more fundamental, something to
> >>do with values and standards. You can have a soft and secure society.

> >
> >it's called a lack of respect. visible all over the place, unfortunately.

>
> Yes, but the 'respect' agenda has been hijacked to become more of a
> punitive social order / control debate - and feck-all to do with
> values and and standards IMO. I have absolutley no idea how a society
> can expect people to show respect for others when they have no respect
> for themselves. There are two ways of getting people to do what you
> want them to do;
>
> Offer them something nice as an incentive
> or
> Remove something from them if they do not comply
>
> I see too much removal of liberty in one sense or another an all too
> little reward (and in this sense, 'reward' need not be directly
> tangible in any commonly accepted sense).
>
> I firmly believe the greatest reward for all of us, is 'collective
> harmony'.
>
>


While not actually disagreeing, I'd say the thing that has changed,
through most of society, is that everyone is absoultely convinced
of the "rights", very, very few people mention their responsibilties.

What a lot older people would regard as privilages are now regarded
as "rights" and the connection to their responsibilities is not therefore
made, leading to ever-greater demands.

I had the privilage of attending a school that was something of a
social experiment in that the pupils were, to a large extent, responsible
for the day-to-day discipline and we were judged and punished by our peers,
not the staff unless it was an external matter. We were fully aware of
what constituted a privilage, and also fully aware that the first "level"
of punishment was removal of some, or all, of those privilages. Our
responsibility was essentially to obay the rules, a lot of which
were also at least influenced by the ourselves.

It worked a treat on everyone, and while not fully implementable in a
large school a lot could be done. Whatever the "experts" say, what goes
on in school not only has a direct effect on life outside school, but
stays with the individual for life - e.g. the hoodies, who have
discovered that in reality schools have no control over them if they are
aware of their "rights" and can pretty much do as they please. They
simply carry this over to out of school hours, and into their later
life until such time as they get their own responsibilities and realise
the connection. Anyone who has been the victim of hoodies, as I have,
will know that their behaviour is strikingly similar to the play-ground
bullies.

Richard
--
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:28:28 +1300, Brian <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> Mother wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I firmly believe the greatest reward for all of us, is 'collective
>>> harmony'.
>>>
>>>

>>
>> I could live under the rule of a benevolent dictator if that was
>> his/hers belief.

>
> I've long thought that benevolent dictatorship or monarchy are
> probably the best form of government. The difficulty is when you get
> the wrong dictator/monarch. At least with the current system we get
> a chance to change the people in power (although it doesn't seem to
> work reliably. Try to find anyone who'll admit to voting for the
> current bunch... but they're still in power) every so often.


Don't matter who you vote for the Govt. always gets in.

--
"He who says it cannot be done is advised not to interrupt her doing
it."

If at first you don't succeed,
maybe skydiving's not for you!


 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:45:43 +0000, Mother wrote:

> I don't follow the 'we must get stricter' arguments I hear each and
> every week. I think there's something more fundamental, something
> to do with values and standards.


I think the word is "respect"?

> You can have a soft and secure society.


Only if the members of a society obey the rules set out by that
society. Once a significant number of members stop following the rules
the society collapses.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
In message <[email protected]>
"GbH" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Austin Shackles wrote:
> > On or around Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:28:28 +1300, Brian <[email protected]>
> > enlightened us thusly:
> >
> >> Mother wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I firmly believe the greatest reward for all of us, is 'collective
> >>> harmony'.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I could live under the rule of a benevolent dictator if that was
> >> his/hers belief.

> >
> > I've long thought that benevolent dictatorship or monarchy are
> > probably the best form of government. The difficulty is when you get
> > the wrong dictator/monarch. At least with the current system we get
> > a chance to change the people in power (although it doesn't seem to
> > work reliably. Try to find anyone who'll admit to voting for the
> > current bunch... but they're still in power) every so often.

>
> Don't matter who you vote for the Govt. always gets in.
>


and the Opposition has always got all the answers.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
This one has struck a chord with me. Not sure how many of you have met my
daughter R'Vanneth. She's only 9, and is dealing on a regular basis with
being virtually ignored at school. She is never late, she's intelligent,
she's not disruptive, apparently she's a joy to have in the classroom.

Sometimes she comes home, sighs deeply and asks why the "naughty" children
get all the praise, the prizes (for working hard apparently) and extra time
from the teachers. Obviously *WE* can understand what is being attempted -
but it's being taken to such a degree that the hard workers are now being
ignored because they are "always good". A little praise goes a long way -
and for her to constantly work hard for some recognition and lose it to some
little oik that hasn't sworn at a teacher for a week upsets her (and me).

Society is changing. I'm not sure if it's for the good.

--
Neil

P.S. Anyone watch "Life on Mars"? A damn good example of how in 20 odd years
we are so PC that society is barely recognisable!



 
[nb: strong views expressed - you've been warned!]

In article <[email protected]>, Mother
<"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> writes
>I see too much removal of liberty in one sense or another an all too
>little reward (and in this sense, 'reward' need not be directly
>tangible in any commonly accepted sense).


Kids have no concept of how hard they'll be hit by the real
world of work. We face global competition with a vengeance now,
India, China and Latin America too, and our current social
structure is wholly unsustainable.

The trouble is, every school wants to be a performing arts
college (I exaggerate, but you get the drift), and nobody's
telling the children just how tough it will be and how hard
they'll have to compete for even ordinary jobs in future.

Now this next bit looks like a complete switch of topic, bit it
isn't - bear with me as it's horribly relevant:

I'm incensed by the mass immigration we're seeing, not because
of race or creed, but because it operates to take low-end work
and thus dignity from people already here, and will eventually
cause the collapse of society.

We have a Normal distribution of intelligence, as with every
other society on the planet, but immigrants can reasonably be
expected to be on average brighter than those who don't move.
Thus, irrespective of background, you'd generally expect them
to out-compete the existing population for low-end jobs in the
first instance because they're better and far more motivated
(Maslow), and then rapidly move up the social scale.

This is indeed what the figures show - and good for them! They
have the humility and determination to do jobs our children
don't want. Unfortunately, that's creating a massive and
permanent imbalance in society.

The net economic benefit is less than nil, because all
immigrants are aspirants too. They want to progress, have
pensions, et mortgages, send their children to Oxford, etc.,
and why not? The second and subsequent generations are just
like my children. Neither they nor their parents want them to
do the menial jobs their parents did. Again this is quite
reasonable and understandable, BUT, if you fall for the
rhetoric, it also means we need more immigrants for those
unwanted jobs. Thus the cycle continues, with an ever-
increasing population and demand on social provision of all
kinds.

As for immigration counterbalancing an ageing population - this
argument is so stupid it just makes me angry: immigrants age
just as anyone else does. Shouldn't they have a right to
pension and health-care provision like the rest of us, or is
the government actually proposing a discriminatory two-tier
society?

It turns out that immigrant workers are far more expensive for
a society like ours in the long run, because to the normal
lifetime public-sector cost you have to add the considerable
expenses of the support and integration phases. Without double-
digit economic growth (and, thanks to 'Imprudence' the UK
economy is teetering on a precipice right now), the present
situation - never mind the immigration expected over the next
decade or more - is quite unsustainable economically, never
mind socially. It will eventually end in societal break down
and anarchy.

The only fix - and it's a sticking plaster - is cramming as
much education into our children as possible. There is no such
thing as a sustainable knowledge-based economy (because of the
bottom half of the normal distribution - they have to do
something!), but we can stave off societal collapse for a while
by ensuring our children are the best educated they can
possibly be, such that we can out-compete other places for
creative work (but we still do need to stop mass immigration
immediately).

Thus the discipline problem is crucial. Rude and intractable
children, indulged by their parents and the education sector's
child 'psychologists', are destroying their own futures and
those of the children they share classes with. It's not the
street crime rate we should be worrying about, it's the mass
unemployment of the next generation, caused by them being
rendered unemployable by poor education and social systems, and
a global economy that cares not where a job is done as long as
it happens. "Their" jobs will end up elsewhere on the planet,
done by well educated Chinese and Indians ('good for them!'
says I).

Forget whatever nasty racist rubbish you may hear from the BNP-
the real issues are economics, together with discipline and
quality in education. Nobody with children, of whatever
background, living in this country now can afford to let the
present situation obtain for much longer.

If the British population, _all_ of us, don't wake up and smell
the coffee soon, our kids will be making it with acorns. I
exaggerate, obviously, but the crisis remains real.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/
 
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 16:29:13 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm incensed by the mass immigration we're seeing, not because
>of race or creed, but because it operates to take low-end work
>and thus dignity from people already here, and will eventually
>cause the collapse of society.


Some of us who can remember the time following the Second World War
will also remember the pride everyone felt as beating the injustice of
the Nazi threat to global security. Everyone was so proud, in our
"Country fit for Heros" that nobody wanted to do the menial jobs, like
driving a bus or train, or emptying bins or sweeping the streets.

So we initiated one of the largest programs of immigration ever known,
offering huge incentives for (amongst others) folk from the West
Indies to come and do our ****ty jobs. Then throughout the 50s and
60s people realised the euphoria had worn off and our Country fit for
Heros was actually a country fit for lazy ****ers who'd once won a war
- they had to turn their frustrations on someone - surprise ****ing
surprise that they turned it on the poor ****ers we'd begged to come
here to clean our streets because we were far too good to do such
work. Basically, we make a rod for our own back - then beat the
innocent with it...

I'm only going to make this one posting in response to this thread,
partly as it's sooooo far off topic as to be in orbit and partly
becuase this is the sort of thread which I generally never want to get
involved with (don't _do_ reliin an polytiks y'see...)


--
Bit sad that we still, in this age of communications, have
so many folk who wear blinkers and are convinced that the
whole world is the same as their own extremely limited view
of it. Peter G Strangman Born 1937, rang-off: 1999-07-08
 

"Dave Liquorice"wrote ((snip))
> Once a significant number of members stop following the rules
> the society collapses.
>


Which brings us back to driving standards again. :)

--
Regards
Bob


 
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