Series 3 engine ...repair or replace??

I used the word economical as part of the total package.......no, I lied. I just love playing with old vehicles. Last year I restored a 1953 Massey Ferguson T20 tractor. This year the series 3. My wife has pedegry sheep so, from time to time, we need a towing vehicle to move them. The series 3 will do the job, the rest of the time it will be fun to drive. We have a very boring family car for the economy drive. Thanks for you comments.

Bob

Dear all, this is the latest on my SWB diesel. Fitted new injectors as old ones not working correctly......still grey smoke . Replaced timing chain and re-timed. Better but still lots of grey smoke. Interesting, now starts without heaters. Moved the pump in every possible position, found best position, better at 1000 rpm but blocks the sun out when I put my foot down.
I would be interested in any suggestions . Have started to look for a 200 TDI engine, does anyone have one ?????

Bob

Hi Bob...I bet your so near with that pump timing...its quite critical...picked up a quite a bit of experiance with the 2.25d with over 200.000k miles under my belt.

If its starting without heat I would suggest its still to far advanced...I trust you have got the valve timing correct.

I remember once I re-fitted the injector pump drive gear that meshes with the cam....I must have had it one tooth out....I have never seen so much grey smoke of of a diesel in my life.

once I removed an re-fitted that all was well...if your smoke is not mega it wont be that....

When you say has anybody got a 200di do you mean to sell or are using...in an earlier post I mentioned I have one in my S3 80"

Its a very economical powerful engine for a S3 Landrover...I never have to touch it...ticks every box for me...dont worry to much about the anti diesel brigade...be many years if ever before they can get rid of them...old historic ones will prob be exempt anyway...to be honest...its the best thing I have done fitting it...and have no regrets what so ever removing the turbo...less to go wrong.

My mate has an old grey Fergie like yours...with a Standard Diesel engine..he has all the implements to go with it...very nice bit of kit.

Bob Pate said:

Dear all, this is the latest on my SWB diesel. Fitted new injectors as old ones not working correctly......still grey smoke . Replaced timing chain and re-timed. Better but still lots of grey smoke. Interesting, now starts without heaters. Moved the pump in every possible position, found best position, better at 1000 rpm but blocks the sun out when I put my foot down.
I would be interested in any suggestions . Have started to look for a 200 TDI engine, does anyone have one ?????

Bob

Click to expand...

You say new injectors - new to you or actually new?

When you replaced the injectors did you put in new sealing washers?

You've changed the timing chain - I assume you followed the procedure in the green book (otherwise you'd have been blinking lucky not to have valves meeting with pistons) but did you follow the procedure for the pump too? Or was that left where it was?

##########

Have you done a compression test? Sounds like you have a healthy engine if it starts with out glow plugs - but it is summer time - try that in a few months!

Stretch said:

You say new injectors - new to you or actually new?

When you replaced the injectors did you put in new sealing washers?

You've changed the timing chain - I assume you followed the procedure in the green book (otherwise you'd have been blinking lucky not to have valves meeting with pistons) but did you follow the procedure for the pump too? Or was that left where it was?

##########

Have you done a compression test? Sounds like you have a healthy engine if it starts with out glow plugs - but it is summer time - try that in a few months!

Click to expand...

Yes new injectors with seal washers. Yes followed the green book at all stages. The pump was left as it was but I am thinking of trying that next to make sure the gear is at 20degrees. Do not have the means of doing the compression test but I have no blowback via the oil filler so I assume all is ok.

Thanks for your comments

Bob

How bad is the smoke...with my drive cog out one tooth it really was unbelievable...completely filled our street.

nickjaxe said:

Hi Bob...I bet your so near with that pump timing...its quite critical...picked up a quite a bit of experiance with the 2.25d with over 200.000k miles under my belt.

If its starting without heat I would suggest its still to far advanced...I trust you have got the valve timing correct.

I remember once I re-fitted the injector pump drive gear that meshes with the cam....I must have had it one tooth out....I have never seen so much grey smoke of of a diesel in my life.

once I removed an re-fitted that all was well...if your smoke is not mega it wont be that....

When you say has anybody got a 200di do you mean to sell or are using...in an earlier post I mentioned I have one in my S3 80"

Its a very economical powerful engine for a S3 Landrover...I never have to touch it...ticks every box for me...dont worry to much about the anti diesel brigade...be many years if ever before they can get rid of them...old historic ones will prob be exempt anyway...to be honest...its the best thing I have done fitting it...and have no regrets what so ever removing the turbo...less to go wrong.

My mate has an old grey Fergie like yours...with a Standard Diesel engine..he has all the implements to go with it...very nice bit of kit.

Click to expand...

Hi, thanks for your really helpful comment. I wish we could talk on the phone I have so many questions.
1) Could you please explain more about why you think it's too far advanced and why that means it can start without the heaters. I think I explained I am a diesel virgin.....but learning fast!!!
2) I have moved the pump both ways without improving the smoke problem. Is there a way of resetting the starting point? At the moment I appear to get the least smoke at 1000rpm with the pump turned to its maximum clockwise (I have now run out of slot).
3) I replaced the timing chain and reset the timing as per the green book but I did not look at the position of the gear under the pump. I am concerned about that being out as I have run out of the slot on the pump. I don't have any smoke on tick over but the sun goes out when I put my foot down. Comments please.
4) I would like to keep to this engine but I feel I am running out of options so I have start looking for a 200 tdi as that appears to be the best option and you have confirmed that. When you did yours did you keep the turbo fitted and did you change your gearbox to a TDI box?
5) my Massey is a TVO (Petrol/TVO) but it's fun to drive and I have a grass topper on the back. Looking for an original plough next.

Best wishes

Bob

nickjaxe said:

How bad is the smoke...with my drive cog out one tooth it really was unbelievable...completely filled our street.

Click to expand...

Quite bad. Filled the workshop in a few seconds.

Bob Pate said:

Quite bad. Filled the workshop in a few seconds.

Click to expand...

Sounds like it could be caused by injector nozzle blown, injector pump overfuelling, or pump timing out. But if it runs well throughout the rev range the pump timing probably isn't too bad.

Not seen the thread before, I will have a read through it and see if I can come up with a better solution.

Bob Pate said:

Yes new injectors with seal washers. Yes followed the green book at all stages. The pump was left as it was but I am thinking of trying that next to make sure the gear is at 20degrees. Do not have the means of doing the compression test but I have no blowback via the oil filler so I assume all is ok.

Thanks for your comments

Bob

Click to expand...

When you say new, is that brand new, or reconned injectors, or just worn ones of another engine?

And as you say, the position of the gear on the camshaft is critical to pump timing.

Bob Pate said:

Hi, thanks for your really helpful comment. I wish we could talk on the phone I have so many questions.
1) Could you please explain more about why you think it's too far advanced and why that means it can start without the heaters. I think I explained I am a diesel virgin.....but learning fast!!!
2) I have moved the pump both ways without improving the smoke problem. Is there a way of resetting the starting point? At the moment I appear to get the least smoke at 1000rpm with the pump turned to its maximum clockwise (I have now run out of slot).
3) I replaced the timing chain and reset the timing as per the green book but I did not look at the position of the gear under the pump. I am concerned about that being out as I have run out of the slot on the pump. I don't have any smoke on tick over but the sun goes out when I put my foot down. Comments please.
4) I would like to keep to this engine but I feel I am running out of options so I have start looking for a 200 tdi as that appears to be the best option and you have confirmed that. When you did yours did you keep the turbo fitted and did you change your gearbox to a TDI box?
5) my Massey is a TVO (Petrol/TVO) but it's fun to drive and I have a grass topper on the back. Looking for an original plough next.

Best wishes

Bob

Click to expand...

He isn't saying that the pump timing must be good if it starts. He is saying the fact that it starts means the compression is good, which indicates that the overall mechanical condition is probably OK. Good compression is vital to diesel starting.

Turboman said:

When you say new, is that brand new, or reconned injectors, or just worn ones of another engine?

And as you say, the position of the gear on the camshaft is critical to pump timing.

Click to expand...

Brand new injectors

Bob Pate said:

Brand new injectors

Click to expand...

In that case, either the fuel pump timing is out, maybe though being a tooth out on the chain, or maybe through the gear being misplaced on the cam. But I would think much more likely injector pump is overfuelling, as James suggested earlier in the thread.

Turboman said:

In that case, either the fuel pump timing is out, maybe though being a tooth out on the chain, or maybe through the gear being misplaced on the cam. But I would think much more likely injector pump is overfuelling, as James suggested earlier in the thread.

Click to expand...

When you say over fuelling what causes that? I have fitted a brand new set of injectors so how can the pump deliver more than the injectors can deliver?


Best wishes

Bob

Bob Pate said:

When you say over fuelling what causes that? I have fitted a brand new set of injectors so how can the pump deliver more than the injectors can deliver?


Best wishes

Bob

Click to expand...

Exactly what James says in post 24, some idiot has most likely turned the max fuel screw, trying to get more power.

The injectors have no control over how much fuel is delivered, they simply pop open on a spring. The injection pump controls the amount of fuel delivered.

Turboman said:

Exactly what James says in post 24, some idiot has most likely turned the max fuel screw, trying to get more power.

The injectors have no control over how much fuel is delivered, they simply pop open on a spring. The injection pump controls the amount of fuel delivered.

Click to expand...

Thank you. That helps. I have had so much information I am overwhelmed. I need to go back and review it all.

Best wishes

Bob

Bob Pate said:

Thank you. That helps. I have had so much information I am overwhelmed. I need to go back and review it all.

Best wishes

Bob

Click to expand...

Try just taking it to a fuel injection specialist, they will probably reset the screw for you. Or remove the pump and take it to them, they will check it on their machine, and re-calibrate if needed.

Simply put:-

1) This is a compression ignition engine - no compression / poor compression and you'll have trouble (your engine starting in the summer with out glow plugs suggests you've got adequate compression)

2) Injectors - think of them as pressure relief valves - they just squirt when the fuel pressure made by the injector pump is reached - these are not "intelligent" in this type of diesel engine (modern diesels are bit different)

3) The injector pump timing is crucial - this sets the base line time at which fuel is injected. If the injectors squirt the fuel at the wrong time the chances of unburnt fuel is greatly increased - unburnt fuel = smoke (unfortunately other things = smoke too but I'm trying not to make this too complicated yet!)


#####

2a) Back to injectors - once you are sure you've got the pump timing 100% correct then you might want to consider the injectors again if you're still getting trouble. The point at which each of the injectors "release" is very important. You need to have a balanced set of injectors - they all need to "pop" at the same pressure. If one cylinder pops too soon or too late then it is like your timing is out. If this is really out of whack then you'll have a very uneven engine.

Stretch said:

Simply put:-

1) This is a compression ignition engine - no compression / poor compression and you'll have trouble (your engine starting in the summer with out glow plugs suggests you've got adequate compression)

2) Injectors - think of them as pressure relief valves - they just squirt when the fuel pressure made by the injector pump is reached - these are not "intelligent" in this type of diesel engine (modern diesels are bit different)

3) The injector pump timing is crucial - this sets the base line time at which fuel is injected. If the injectors squirt the fuel at the wrong time the chances of unburnt fuel is greatly increased - unburnt fuel = smoke (unfortunately other things = smoke too but I'm trying not to make this too complicated yet!)


#####

2a) Back to injectors - once you are sure you've got the pump timing 100% correct then you might want to consider the injectors again if you're still getting trouble. The point at which each of the injectors "release" is very important. You need to have a balanced set of injectors - they all need to "pop" at the same pressure. If one cylinder pops too soon or too late then it is like your timing is out. If this is really out of whack then you'll have a very uneven engine.

Click to expand...

He hasn't checked the fuel delivery of the pump. It is highly likely that that is causing his problem.

Turboman said:

He hasn't checked the fuel delivery of the pump. It is highly likely that that is causing his problem.

Click to expand...

I agree

I have heard that there's quite a bit of slack in this part of the system so care is needed: Even a special wind it up tight special tool...