Re: More Infor on BioDiesel

Chris Phillipo wrote:
>
> You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> comes from the same place as gasoline.

Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
your tank !

The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.

Steve

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, in
<[email protected]>, Steve
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Have we enough land ?

unfortunately. I don't think so

( I asked a similar question on uk.business.agriculture a while ago)
--
denis

"I teleported home one night, With Ron and Sid and Meg,
Ron stole Meggie's heart away, And I got Sidney's leg. "

try runnin' those #'s usin' HEMP SEED its closer to 500 gallon per....

The Dirt Weasel
"JEEP..........It's whats fer' Dinner"

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> > > /gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?
> > >
> >
> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> > comes from the same place as gasoline. You are equally delusional if
> > you think it would be any cheaper per gallon in the US if demand for it
> > was as high as it is for gasoline.
> >
>
> Chris
> Bio Diesel can be made from any plant oil. I posted the types of
> plants and the yeilds per acre of the various oil producing plants some
> time back. Right now Rape seed oil is probably the most economical to
> grow. The USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture) estimates that the
> yield of rapeseed oil is about 179 gallons an acre. With a viable bio
> diesel market we could probably raise 20 million gallons of the stuff
> with out much impact on the commercial markets of other agricultural
> products.
>
>

Great, that should last about a week. Then what? It may have a place
in the diversification of energy sources but it's not a final solution.
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >
> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
>
> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
> your tank !
>
> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
>
> Steve
>

It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Subject: Re: More Infor on BioDiesel
> From: [email protected] (PR)
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4
>
> try runnin' those #'s usin' HEMP SEED its closer to 500 gallon per....
>
> The Dirt Weasel
> "JEEP..........It's whats fer' Dinner"
>
>
>

I predict wild fires will be more common though
--
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On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> Chris Phillipo wrote:
>> >
>> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
>> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
>> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
>>
>> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
>> your tank !
>>
>> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
>> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
>> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>
> It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
> it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
> gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
> transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?

The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
oil with a spoon.

Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".

But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
web pages and goes off the deep end...

The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.

Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
other things: And the middle-class shrinks.

Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)



If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to
keep control of the world's dwindling supplies of petroleum.

Keeping the M.E. reserves out of the hands of the Chinese (only about 200 miles
from Afghanistan and needing more and more oil everyday....) is one of the
main reasons the U.S. is in the M.E. right now.

AC

Steve <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> up. Have we enough land ?
>
> Steve

probably not, if the US intends to supports it's consumeristic and
wasteful practices.

I forsee a VERY different lifestyle in the US once the fossil fuel dry
up. While plastics can be made from vegetable oil... the use of
plastics will much much more rare.

The use of locally grown plant fibers will come back into use,
displacing artifical fibers. Hemp, linen,and raime will be grown
locally, with some cotton in the south, but less cotton than is now
being produced.

The US will become more agricultural, and more ppl will live on farms
and will grow food and other renewable farm products.

Will would have to begin using more animal power. Houses would have to
be built of natural available materials. These residences would be
passively heated and cooled.

Only when we learned to live much more earth friendly methods can
expect to be able to grow enuf oil to power those sections of our
lives that require a boost.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >> Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >> >
> >> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> >> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> >> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
> >>
> >> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
> >> your tank !
> >>
> >> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
> >> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
> >> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >
> > It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
> > it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
> > gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
> > transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
>
> The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
> hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
> to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
> oil with a spoon.
>

I don't consider it "making" simply because you make a cake, you don't
extract a cake from a big tanker full of cake mix. Making implies you
are getting something greater than the sum of it's parts. It's the
opposite with refining. Diesel wouldn't even be a viable product if it
wasn't for the fact that it's a byproduct of refining oil to get
gasoline and kerosene. Imagine if oil was refined only to get diesel,
more than half the energy and 80% of the dollar value would just go down
the drain.

> Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".
>
> But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
> for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
> not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
> web pages and goes off the deep end...
>
> The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
> thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
> people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.
>
> Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
> other things: And the middle-class shrinks.
>
> Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)
>
>
>
> If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to

I think we all know that the only thing that will drive change is the
dollar and we have a long time to wait before things get that bad. Back
when we were going to run out of oil by 1989 people were talking just
like this.
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Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >>
> >I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> >say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> >up. Have we enough land ?
> >
>
> According to some approximate figures I worked out a bit back, the fuel used
> in cars in the UK must come into the region of millions of gallons per day.
>
> However, I've no idea how much oilseed rape you have to grow to produce that
> much fuel, or indeed any given amount of fuel.

How much land is dependent on the crop, and how rich is the land. Some
oil crops produce more oil than others.

Of the crops grown for oil, coconut palms produce the most oil/acre.
Naturally, coconuts don't grow everywhere, so ppl have to figure out
what oil bearing crop grows best in their area.

The next most oil productive land plant is Canola, followed by
Safflower and Sunflowers.

Oil can come from many sources: hemp seed, corn, and a variety of
other things. There is even an oil bearing algae that grows in salt
water! This algae bears up to 10X as much oil as an equivalent amount
of coconut pulp.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 00:12:09 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > In article <[email protected]>,
>> > [email protected] says...
>> >> Chris Phillipo wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
>> >> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
>> >> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
>> >>
>> >> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
>> >> your tank !
>> >>
>> >> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
>> >> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
>> >> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >
>> > It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
>> > it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
>> > gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
>> > transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
>>
>> The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
>> hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
>> to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
>> oil with a spoon.
>>
>
> I don't consider it "making" simply because you make a cake, you don't
> extract a cake from a big tanker full of cake mix. Making implies you
> are getting something greater than the sum of it's parts. It's the
> opposite with refining.

You are using complex machinery, energy, and petroleum. That's
making. That's what I think, and I don't care whether you agree with
me or not.

Go get yourself a barrel of crude oil and produce some diesel from it
for us, and then tell us if you still think it isn't "making".

ROTFL !!

Diesel wouldn't even be a viable product if it
> wasn't for the fact that it's a byproduct of refining oil to get
> gasoline and kerosene. Imagine if oil was refined only to get diesel,
> more than half the energy and 80% of the dollar value would just go down
> the drain.
>

That's hardly relevant.


>> Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".
>>
>> But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
>> for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
>> not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
>> web pages and goes off the deep end...
>>
>> The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
>> thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
>> people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.
>>
>> Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
>> other things: And the middle-class shrinks.
>>
>> Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)
>>
>>
>>
>> If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to
>
> I think we all know that the only thing that will drive change is the
> dollar and we have a long time to wait before things get that bad. Back
> when we were going to run out of oil by 1989 people were talking just
> like this.

You are very glib, but there's little substance to your arguments.

Oil is *obviously* going to run out. Just because someone missed the date
where it becomes a critical issue, doesn't change that fact at all.

It doesn't have to be even CLOSE to running out to become too expensive
because of increasing demand from developing countries like China and India.

And for the military costs of controlling the world's *relatively* AND
absolutely, dwindling supplies to exceed the monetary advantages of
using it over alternatives. All of which are far more costly than oil
for the majority.

AC

On or around Fri, 14 May 2004 02:42:56 GMT, Alan Connor <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
>for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
>not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
>web pages and goes off the deep end...

in what way? are you saying it's not viable due to the number involved?
'cos if so, I expect you're right. Technically, it can be done - you can
also do ethanol for spark-ignition engines.

however, we *will* deplete the oil supply if we carry on as we are, so we
need some sort of alternative. And the much in-vogue hydrogen is a long way
from practical too.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
0123456789112345678921234567893123456789412345678951234567896123456789712345
1 weebl: What's this? | in recognition of the fun that is weebl and bob
2 bob: it a SigRuler! | check out the weebl and bob archive:
3 weebl: How Handy! | http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/archives.php

> however, we *will* deplete the oil supply if we carry on as we are, so we
> need some sort of alternative. And the much in-vogue hydrogen is a long way
> from practical too.

Hydrogen is not an energy source.. It's an energy storage medium.
The only advantage to hydrogen is that it lets you combine your
energy generation plants to a few central places where it's easier
to blow them up... er... easier to control the polution, because it's
a point-source.

--Goedjn

Denis F <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, in
> <[email protected]>, Steve
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Have we enough land ?
>
> unfortunately. I don't think so

However we could make a significant saving by using waste fats for fuel.
It doesn't need to be created by esterification either, that's just
stupid piddling about. Many diesel engines will run quite happily on
vegetable oil provided that the oil has been thinned with a small
proportion (about 5ml per litre) of kerosene.

What makes it uneconomic to do this in the UK is stupid government
policy which taxes vegetable oil used as fuel at the same level as
fossil fuel.

Vegetable oil can be obtained for about 24p/litre - around the same
price as central heating oil. Also it can be used twice, since your
engine really doesn't care if the oil has been used for frying first.
Hence there's less need to dedicate land to growing crops just for fuel.
And a 5% saving on fossil fuel use is worth making.

--
Having problems understanding usenet? Or do you simply need help but
are getting unhelpful answers? Subscribe to: uk.net.beginners for
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In article <1gdsfw0.h3p84wxhizeyN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>, Steve Firth
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Denis F <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, in
> > <[email protected]>, Steve
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Have we enough land ?
> >
> > unfortunately. I don't think so
>
> However we could make a significant saving by using waste fats for fuel.
> It doesn't need to be created by esterification either, that's just
> stupid piddling about. Many diesel engines will run quite happily on
> vegetable oil provided that the oil has been thinned with a small
> proportion (about 5ml per litre) of kerosene.

As with the earlier poster (maybe it was you, I can't easily check),
you just don't realize what a "piddling" (to use your own words) amount
of deep fryer fat and frying pan fat is available. Besides the issue
that most households use very little vegetable fat (that is
recoverable, as opposed to being eaten, thrown out with the dregs,
etc.), even restaurants and fast food places are using less today than
in earlier years.

A rough measure of this can be seen by noting the traffic of gas
tankers (a lot!) compared to the "waste vegetable oil tankers" (rare!).

If used vegetable oil totals up to even 2% of gas and diesel supplies,
I'll be very surprised.

In other words, inconsequential to even worry about.

Sure, a tiny percentage of people can figure out some source (probably
intermittent, requiring them to store on their sites) of used deep fat
fryer oil, and the local newspapers will run the usual bull****
articles like "Local man runs diesel tractor on restaurant grease!,"
but the impact is inconsequential.


--Tim May


>
> What makes it uneconomic to do this in the UK is stupid government
> policy which taxes vegetable oil used as fuel at the same level as
> fossil fuel.
>
> Vegetable oil can be obtained for about 24p/litre - around the same
> price as central heating oil. Also it can be used twice, since your
> engine really doesn't care if the oil has been used for frying first.
> Hence there's less need to dedicate land to growing crops just for fuel.
> And a 5% saving on fossil fuel use is worth making.

On or around Fri, 14 May 2004 13:10:29 -0400, default <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>> however, we *will* deplete the oil supply if we carry on as we are, so we
>> need some sort of alternative. And the much in-vogue hydrogen is a long way
>> from practical too.
>
>Hydrogen is not an energy source.. It's an energy storage medium.
>The only advantage to hydrogen is that it lets you combine your
>energy generation plants to a few central places where it's easier
>to blow them up... er... easier to control the polution, because it's
>a point-source.

so are all fuels. What really makes sense is a hydrogen fusion-powered
watre-cracker making hydrogen... but that's a way off, too. Most commercial
H at the moment comes from methane.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'

Tim May <[email protected]> wrote:

> As with the earlier poster (maybe it was you, I can't easily check),
> you just don't realize what a "piddling" (to use your own words) amount
> of deep fryer fat and frying pan fat is available.

<yawn> Perhaps you could turn your brain on before typing?

--
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That's it!

We should eat beans and capture it for our countries!

Splendid idea, instead of taking a bubble bath with my reserve of methane
from eating beans tonight. I shall go to the convenience store, get a bottle
of soda, and harness both the anal and upper G.I. methanes and ship it to
whomever it may help.

Refinish King


"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Fri, 14 May 2004 13:10:29 -0400, default
<[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >> however, we *will* deplete the oil supply if we carry on as we are, so
we
> >> need some sort of alternative. And the much in-vogue hydrogen is a
long way
> >> from practical too.
> >
> >Hydrogen is not an energy source.. It's an energy storage medium.
> >The only advantage to hydrogen is that it lets you combine your
> >energy generation plants to a few central places where it's easier
> >to blow them up... er... easier to control the polution, because it's
> >a point-source.
>
> so are all fuels. What really makes sense is a hydrogen fusion-powered
> watre-cracker making hydrogen... but that's a way off, too. Most
commercial
> H at the moment comes from methane.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'

I made a bit mistake when I wrote a post about bio diesel. I said
that we could make 20,000,000 gallons of bio diesel with out a
substantial impact on our agriculture.

What I meant to say was that we could plant an additional 20,000,000
acres of rape seed with out substantial impact on our agriculture.

Now that I have done some additional research 20,000,000 acres would
probably cause some dislocation (higher prices) but the increase in the
price of crude to $41.18 a barrel will also cause even a larger market
dislocation in other agricultural goods.


An additional 20,000,000 dedicated to rape seed production and
an additional million acres of acres would be a much better solution.

If we increase our acreage of things that we go now and can use
the calce (solids left over for cattle feed or other uses), we
could increase the production of the following

Corn @ 18 gal per acre
Oats @ 23 gal per acre
cotton @ 35 gal per acre
hemp @ 39 gal per acre
soybean @ 48 gal per acre
Flax @ 51 gal per acre
Pumpkin Seed @ 57 gal per acre
Mustard Seed @ 61 gal per acre
Safflower @ 83 gal per acre
rice @ 88 gal per acre
sunflower @ 102 gal per acre
Peanuts @ 113 gal per acre
Rape seed @ 127 gal per acre
Olives @ 129 gal per acre
Caster beans @ 151 gal per acre
Jojoba seeds @ 202 gal per acre
Avocado @ 282 gal per acre

We could probably increase our production of vegetable
oils by 20 billion gallons

Also for those inclined to build there own still to make ethanol the
site

http://www.moonshine-still.com

has instructions to build two different type of still that can make
180 proof (95% pure) ethanol in one pass. The still can be build
for less than $100.00 with simple hand tools. It also has a lot of
information about government laws, and safety per cautions.

It also cover a lot about how to make sippin alcohol.

The nicest still is made from stainless steel beer kegs with the
upper reflex part made from copper plumbing tubing. When polished
they look really nice and they get about 2.5 to 3.0 gallons of alcohol
from a bushel of corn.

In any case, for the survivalist I urge you to go to

WWW.journeytoforever.com

for information on alternate fuel, solar power, small farms,
sustainable farming seeds, blacksmithing, water-powered water pumps,
small vermin traps, making hand tools, organic gardening, low-tech
radios, (sophisticated crystal radios that work), a 250 watt pico
turbine from producing electricity, (a mini pico turbine was built by a
bunch of 10 year olds that put out 1/3 watt of power,) and information
on just about anything you might be interested in. It is a site that is
primarily an index to link to other sites.

An very interesting subject topic is City Farms.

The Independent




Chris Phillipo wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > [email protected] says...
> > >> Chris Phillipo wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> > >> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> > >> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
> > >>
> > >> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
> > >> your tank !
> > >>
> > >> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
> > >> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
> > >> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
> > >>
> > >> Steve
> > >>
> > >
> > > It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
> > > it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
> > > gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
> > > transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
> >
> > The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
> > hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
> > to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
> > oil with a spoon.
> >
>
> I don't consider it "making" simply because you make a cake, you don't
> extract a cake from a big tanker full of cake mix. Making implies you
> are getting something greater than the sum of it's parts. It's the
> opposite with refining. Diesel wouldn't even be a viable product if it
> wasn't for the fact that it's a byproduct of refining oil to get
> gasoline and kerosene. Imagine if oil was refined only to get diesel,
> more than half the energy and 80% of the dollar value would just go down
> the drain.
>
> > Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".
> >
> > But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
> > for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
> > not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
> > web pages and goes off the deep end...
> >
> > The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
> > thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
> > people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.
> >
> > Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
> > other things: And the middle-class shrinks.
> >
> > Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)
> >
> >
> >
> > If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to
>
> I think we all know that the only thing that will drive change is the
> dollar and we have a long time to wait before things get that bad. Back
> when we were going to run out of oil by 1989 people were talking just
> like this.
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> >>
> >> The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
> >> hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
> >> to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
> >> oil with a spoon.
> >>
> >
> > I don't consider it "making" simply because you make a cake, you don't
> > extract a cake from a big tanker full of cake mix. Making implies you
> > are getting something greater than the sum of it's parts. It's the
> > opposite with refining.
>
> You are using complex machinery, energy, and petroleum. That's
> making. That's what I think, and I don't care whether you agree with
> me or not.
>
> Go get yourself a barrel of crude oil and produce some diesel from it
> for us, and then tell us if you still think it isn't "making".
>
> ROTFL !!

You could burn crude oil for energy and even power an engine with it,
you can't take flour, eggs and milk and put birthday candles on it.
ROTFL, indeed.

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