P38A P38 DSE fires but won't start

Mark Piercy said:

What's with the repeat posting??

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Sorry I don't understand "repeat posting" ? I just created this account, still not sure how this forum works all tho it seems great . Where are you from then ? Half an hour?

No orange lights on dash when she fired up?

Louis2.5DSE said:

Sorry I don't understand "repeat posting" ? I just created this account, still not sure how this forum works all tho it seems great . Where are you from then ? Half an hour?

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Ah, sorry. I'd posted and it had repeated the post twice so deleted one of the copies of my own post. We are on the border of the Charente and Charente maritime near a village called Chevanceaux 1.5hr away from yourself

RangeRoller dt said:

No orange lights on dash when she fired up?

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Didn't really fire up, just tries very hard to and no nothing alarming on the dash

Louis2.5DSE said:

Didn't really fire up, just tries very hard to and no nothing alarming on the dash

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My money is still on the cam timing being out, it's really the only thing that will stop a diesel firing on Easy Start/Brake cleaner. A compression check might be worthwhile.

Datatek said:

My money is still on the cam timing being out, it's really the only thing that will stop a diesel firing on Easy Start/Brake cleaner. A compression check might be worthwhile.

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I didn't touch the chain from the crank to the FIP so that must still be ok. Is it possible that the camshaft is slightly out of sync ? And if so what is the best way of refitting the sprocket to the camshaft so that the timing is perfect ? I have the work shop manual but it quite vague on that subject.

Louis2.5DSE said:

I didn't touch the chain from the crank to the FIP so that must still be ok. Is it possible that the camshaft is slightly out of sync ? And if so what is the best way of refitting the sprocket to the camshaft so that the timing is perfect ? I have the work shop manual but it quite vague on that subject.

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Just to be sure refit the timing kit and it'll be apparent straight away if it's out dude.
If you rule the timing out you can move on from there.

As far as I recall I just looked at where the lobes were on the cam when I took it off and put them in the same position when I put it back. The timing chains all had pins in to stop them dropping and the cam sprocket was held in place by a stretch bolt.

Unfortunately I cannot open RAVE anymore to refresh my memory. Bl**dy Micro$hite.

Grrrrrr said:

As far as I recall I just looked at where the lobes were on the cam when I took it off and put them in the same position when I put it back. The timing chains all had pins in to stop them dropping and the cam sprocket was held in place by a stretch bolt.

Unfortunately I cannot open RAVE anymore to refresh my memory. Bl**dy Micro$hite.

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I have the tool to lock the camshaft in TDC position and the crank as well but the sprocket that goes onto the camshaft (with the stretch bolt) has no markings or anything so I turned it so that the slack of the chain was on the chain tensioner side that seems logic to me and that is what I did last time. Am I wrong ?

As long as everything is in place with the locking tools the sprocket can be in any position really. On the chaîns there are colored plates that align, unless alot of parts are aftermarket and may not have markings on them.
As long as the camshaft is locked, the crank is locked (in the correct position), the only thing you need after that is the pump in its correct place. If the pump hasn't been de synced with the crank, the issue could be between the crank timing and the camshaft. One method would be to pull the first injector and drop a pencil down the hole. Turn the crank until you are sure the pencil has risen to its maximum height. Then confirm the crank position with the locking pin , then control the camshaft. If it was out from the start there could be other things jiggered

Mark Piercy said:

As long as everything is in place with the locking tools the sprocket can be in any position really. On the chaîns there are colored plates that align, unless alot of parts are aftermarket and may not have markings on them.
As long as the camshaft is locked, the crank is locked (in the correct position), the only thing you need after that is the pump in its correct place. If the pump hasn't been de synced with the crank, the issue could be between the crank timing and the camshaft. One method would be to pull the first injector and drop a pencil down the hole. Turn the crank until you are sure the pencil has risen to its maximum height. Then confirm the crank position with the locking pin , then control the camshaft. If it was out from the start there could be other things jiggered

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I shall check that this weekend, I do understand the basics, I'm a motorbike mechanic but obviously 6 cylinders diesels with high pressure pumps i do not come across every day so i am a bit lost with all of this. I haven't forgotten any of your suggestions and I now have plenty of things to try. Any other ideas are still welcome ! And I thank you all for all your advice!

Hello again !
Been offline for some time now got bored with the p38 but I am back at it, I have now checked all the things you told me to and all seems well but it still won't start! I am now trying to start it without the inlet manifold which gives me more room and I know it runs fine without but I am noticing a lot of backfiring which would suggest timing like you have all mentioned so I have refitted the cam tool and the flywheel tool and they are definitely synchronised. There is a dot on the FIP sprocket that is supposed to be facing up which is almost impossible to see now the head is on but I can see it about 30° before it faces up when the cam is also about 30° before TDC so I can't imagine how anything could be wrong. The flywheel locking pin stayed in the whole time the head was of so it must be in the right hole but suppose it wasn't how can I know when the crank is in TDC 1 and 6 ? Somebody suggested taking out injector 1 and feeling the top of the piston with a screwdriver but you can't do that because of the chamber in which the glow plug is and the fuel is injected into. Is there a mark anywhere else ? Also and I struggle to believe this is the case but would the engin turn over if the cam shaft was 180° out ?

Thanks again for any extra advice !

It is possible to be 180* out, not sure what you have to get wrong to achieve it but I have seen people here with that problem. Symptoms are as you have. I would guess you could tell by the position of cam lobe no1 seen through the oil cap when the timing pin etc are fitted

As has been said before, there is more than one hole in the flywheel into which the pin will go.

RangeRoller dt said:

It is possible to be 180* out, not sure what you have to get wrong to achieve it but I have seen people here with that problem. Symptoms are as you have. I would guess you could tell by the position of cam lobe no1 seen through the oil cap when the timing pin etc are fitted

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Cam cover is back off and lobes of cylinder 1 are as they should, flat sides horizontal and tool fits nicely

Louis2.5DSE said:

Cam cover is back off and lobes of cylinder 1 are as they should, flat sides horizontal and tool fits nicely

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That does not mean the cam is correctly timed to the crank and the FIP.

Datatek said:

As has been said before, there is more than one hole in the flywheel into which the pin will go.

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I know about that but when head was off pistons 1 and 6 where definitely at TDC flush with the bloc I can't think I moved it since, if I did somehow how do i now know that i am in the right hole ? And if I was not in the right one wouldn't the pistons be hitting the valves? I don't know?

Datatek said:

That does not mean the cam is correctly timed to the crank and the FIP.

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That's what I am thinking . Would it be worth trying to get my pin back in the flywheel so crank stays in correct place and then flip the camshaft 180°? I can do that with the cam locking tool because the flat sides on the cam shaft would again fit the tool ?

Louis2.5DSE said:

I know about that but when head was off pistons 1 and 6 where definitely at TDC flush with the bloc I can't think I moved it since, if I did somehow how do i now know that i am in the right hole ? And if I was not in the right one wouldn't the pistons be hitting the valves? I don't know?

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If you remove the crank position sensor (Do not remover the mounting bracket), you can see the flywheel and the holes which will aid you in fitting the pin in the correct hole.

Datatek said:

If you remove the crank position sensor (Do not remover the mounting bracket), you can see the flywheel and the holes which will aid you in fitting the pin in the correct hole.

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That's a good idea! But if I do that how do I know what the correct hole is ? And if I am in the correct one is it worth setting the camshaft 180° the other way?