OT: Windoze Networking and SQL

For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
accessible via the internet.

I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.

Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
those on the server.

If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.

Can it be done?

Am I thinking along the right lines?
--

Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Chairman, Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director
101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk
1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer!
Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT
Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body shell, being bobbed and modded.....

Simon Isaacs wrote:
> For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
> It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
> SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
> because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
> and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
> with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
> accessible via the internet.
>
> I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
> of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
> server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.
>
> Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
> able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
> router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
> to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
> and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
> able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
> database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
> develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
> those on the server.
>
> If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
> the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.
>
> Can it be done?
>
> Am I thinking along the right lines?

First question - do you have a fixed external IP address? If not, routing
will be a problem

Karen

--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Simon Isaacs
<[email protected]> wrote:

>For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
>It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
>SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
>because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
>and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
>with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
>accessible via the internet.
>
>I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
>of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
>server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.
>
>Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
>able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
>router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
>to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
>and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
>able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
>database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
>develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
>those on the server.
>
>If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
>the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.
>
>Can it be done?
>
>Am I thinking along the right lines?

I'd start by getting IT to explain "security issues with SQL". That's
IT speak for "we don't know how it works".

If your SQL Server doesn't contain any sensitive data, there can't be
a security issue with it. You aren't asking them to change their
firewall settings.

By SQL, do you mean the Microsoft SQL Server? It might be easier,
given the hardware available, to use MySQL. SQL Server isn't going to
be amused by 256Mb of RAM. You'll also need the software itself - it
isn't included in NT and it isn't free. You could use MSDE - the free
version, but you don't get the management tools you'll need.

Access is horrible. Don't do it!

Others will be better able to advise on MySQL - ISTR there is a
Windows version now.



--
Tim Hobbs

On 2006-03-21, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:

> If your SQL Server doesn't contain any sensitive data, there can't be
> a security issue with it. You aren't asking them to change their
> firewall settings.

Microsoft SQL server if incorrectly set up (which is the default)
allows complete access to the underlying operating system via an SQL
connection. It's a notorious hotbed of security issues.

WTF is all this doing in the landrover group when some of the group
have been busy hounding some chap out who was posting landy pics to a
website??????????????????????

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Tim Hobbs wrote:

> Others will be better able to advise on MySQL - ISTR there is a
> Windows version now.
Yes there is, I have spent the evening swearing at it, trying to write a
Delphi application that talks to a MySQL database with surprisingly
little success tonight.

Steve

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:02:48 +0000, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Simon Isaacs
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
>>It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
>>SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
>>because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
>>and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
>>with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
>>accessible via the internet.
>>
>>I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
>>of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
>>server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.
>>
>>Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
>>able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
>>router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
>>to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
>>and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
>>able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
>>database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
>>develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
>>those on the server.
>>
>>If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
>>the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.
>>
>>Can it be done?
>>
>>Am I thinking along the right lines?
>
>I'd start by getting IT to explain "security issues with SQL". That's
>IT speak for "we don't know how it works".
>
>If your SQL Server doesn't contain any sensitive data, there can't be
>a security issue with it. You aren't asking them to change their
>firewall settings.
>
>By SQL, do you mean the Microsoft SQL Server? It might be easier,
>given the hardware available, to use MySQL. SQL Server isn't going to
>be amused by 256Mb of RAM. You'll also need the software itself - it
>isn't included in NT and it isn't free. You could use MSDE - the free
>version, but you don't get the management tools you'll need.
>
>Access is horrible. Don't do it!
>
>Others will be better able to advise on MySQL - ISTR there is a
>Windows version now.

I'd also go for mysql.

My networks all run lots of self written management stuff and ive just
been changing that all over to sql.

I initally used MS sql server but it is very big and slow and
complicated compared to mysql.
mysql also doesnt have any noticeable impact on the performance of the
server it is running on whereas ms sql server is very noticeable
especially on older servers

also its free, which is a bonus!

after using it for a month or so i much prefer mysql.

download it off the website and also get the mysql administrator and
the mysql query browser.
the website isnt very clear but:

administrator - lets you graphically create and modify tables and
backup and restore DB's and the like

query browser - adds functionality to administrator that lets you
modify table data and run sql queries and view the resulting
recordsets.

odbc connector - you might need this on the client pcs too.

the software can be a bit flakey occasionally and whenever ive tried
putting any stored procedures in its buggered my whole DB up - but you
dont really need them for simple sql teaching.

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:47:43 +1000, "Karen Gallagher"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Simon Isaacs wrote:
>> For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
>> It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
>> SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
>> because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
>> and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
>> with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
>> accessible via the internet.
>>
>> I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
>> of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
>> server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.
>>
>> Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
>> able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
>> router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
>> to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
>> and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
>> able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
>> database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
>> develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
>> those on the server.
>>
>> If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
>> the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.
>>
>> Can it be done?
>>
>> Am I thinking along the right lines?
>
>First question - do you have a fixed external IP address? If not, routing
>will be a problem
you can use something like dyndns.org to get round this.

Simon - do you intend the kids to access the database from school
machines too or home ones?.
if your school broadband feed is anything like the county provided
ones round here you will not be access any of the ports needed for
management stuff!

You could host something like ASP pages on your private server and let
the kids access the db through that, but they arnt going to be easily
able to run sql queries and use the graphical tools to set up tables
and stuff.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:34:27 +0000, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:47:43 +1000, "Karen Gallagher"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Simon Isaacs wrote:
>>> For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
>>> It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
>>> SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
>>> because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
>>> and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
>>> with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
>>> accessible via the internet.
>>>
>>> I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
>>> of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
>>> server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.
>>>
>>> Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
>>> able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
>>> router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
>>> to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
>>> and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
>>> able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
>>> database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
>>> develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
>>> those on the server.
>>>
>>> If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
>>> the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.
>>>
>>> Can it be done?
>>>
>>> Am I thinking along the right lines?
>>
>>First question - do you have a fixed external IP address? If not, routing
>>will be a problem
>you can use something like dyndns.org to get round this.
>
>Simon - do you intend the kids to access the database from school
>machines too or home ones?.
>if your school broadband feed is anything like the county provided
>ones round here you will not be access any of the ports needed for
>management stuff!
>
>You could host something like ASP pages on your private server and let
>the kids access the db through that, but they arnt going to be easily
>able to run sql queries and use the graphical tools to set up tables
>and stuff.

How about using MS SQL Server Express on the local machines? Assuming
they are up to spec - can be configured to deny remote connections
(default in fact I think).

--
Tim Hobbs

Ian Rawlings wrote:

> WTF is all this doing in the landrover group when some of the group
> have been busy hounding some chap out who was posting landy pics to a
> website??????????????????????
>

Its marked OT in fairness.

Steve

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:40:52 +0000, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:

>How about using MS SQL Server Express on the local machines? Assuming
>they are up to spec - can be configured to deny remote connections
>(default in fact I think).

do you mean MSDE?

while it works, its not very easy to use (especially if youre a total
newbie to sql) as you dont get any of the graphical bits which make it
a lot easier and more straightforward.

As a school technician - if any of my schools wanted to start teaching
pupils SQL i'd set up mysql server on an old server or machine
specifically for this job and then let them at it with mysql
administrator and query browser.
You can set up different user permissions to aspects of the databases
and the administrator and backing up and restoring is very simple so
you can let them do whatever they like and then put test data back in.

At uni, I was tought SQL using MS SQL server and having access to the
enterprise manager and sql analyser made it much clearer.

Tom Woods wrote:

> As a school technician - if any of my schools wanted to start teaching
> pupils SQL i'd set up mysql server on an old server or machine
> specifically for this job and then let them at it with mysql
> administrator and query browser.
> You can set up different user permissions to aspects of the databases
> and the administrator and backing up and restoring is very simple so
> you can let them do whatever they like and then put test data back in.

Someone has probably rolled an entire Linux distie together that sets up
a MYSQl box automagically, but failing that, you can put SUSE10 in
console mode together in 3/4 hour tops.

Steve

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 00:00:17 +0000, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:40:52 +0000, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>How about using MS SQL Server Express on the local machines? Assuming
>>they are up to spec - can be configured to deny remote connections
>>(default in fact I think).
>
>do you mean MSDE?
>

Nope...

http://www.microsoft.com/sql/editions/express/features.mspx

Includes simplified management tools.

MSDE is fine for what it's meant for, but that's definitely not
teaching!

--
Tim Hobbs

On or around Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:24:30 +0000, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>WTF is all this doing in the landrover group when some of the group
>have been busy hounding some chap out who was posting landy pics to a
>website??????????????????????

a valid point. However, it is flagged as OT (which means easy-to-skip) and
it is also being done by regulars who normally post a lot of LR content so
one's inclined to cut them a little slack, as I believe the saying goes.

Maybe what we really need is another thing such as OT, FS, FA and so forth
for people to add posts about putting more pictures on their site...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

Simon

We did something similar and ended up with a little desktop running Suse 10
connected to our ADSL line.
It also has our Moodle server on it. Much better than setting up a posh
Microsoft box. The posh MS box couldn't handle more than 30 connections
without falling over and needed rebooting every other day. The little Suse
box just runs and runs.

Suse is very easy to set up (it must be I did it!) and is free.

Ain't it funny how many educational people we have in here (I'm an ICT
coord), must be all them long hours and short hoildays we have.

Nigel

--
nigel@leginDOTorg
1979 Lightweight
Blitz 4x4
and a couple of SJs for spares

......

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:45:40 +0000 (UTC), Simon Isaacs
<[email protected]> wrote:

>For one reason or another, I need to try and develop a SQL database.
>It is to teach SQL to a small group of Yr10's who want to create an
>SQL database, but the school servers are not allowed to run SQL
>because of "security issues with SQL" Its for their GCSE coursework,
>and a long term project (9months). The rest of the class want to play
>with Access, but they want to be able to develop their database to be
>accessible via the internet.
>
>I have an old machine (P2 300mhz 256mb ram) sitting here, and a copy
>of NT Server. To test and develop the SQL i believe that I need a
>server capable of running SQL, which NT Server claims to do.
>
>Theory seems to suggest that as NT Server supports SQL, I should be
>able to install this on the old box, plug it into my BT Voyager ADSL
>router, and then get my desktop (XP home) and the new "server" to talk
>to each other, and create the test environment for me to prat around
>and experiment at home. Knowing the IP address, the kids would be
>able to access the server via my broadband router to develop their
>database, but *not* my desktop machine. I believe they could also
>develop the front end webpages to to retrieve the SQL data and store
>those on the server.
>
>If it can be done, it means I've got to learn SQL more quickly than
>the kids can..... I foresee some long nights.
>
>Can it be done?
>
>Am I thinking along the right lines?
Simon,

You could try this site:

http://www.freesql.org/

or the results of a google search:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-06,GGLG:en&q=sql++free

regards

nemo2

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:40:15 -0000, "Nigel" <[email protected]>
scribbled the following nonsense:

>Simon
>
>We did something similar and ended up with a little desktop running Suse 10
>connected to our ADSL line.
>It also has our Moodle server on it. Much better than setting up a posh
>Microsoft box. The posh MS box couldn't handle more than 30 connections
>without falling over and needed rebooting every other day. The little Suse
>box just runs and runs.
>
>Suse is very easy to set up (it must be I did it!) and is free.
>
>Ain't it funny how many educational people we have in here (I'm an ICT
>coord), must be all them long hours and short hoildays we have.
>
>Nigel

just can't handle having to have a holiday every 6 weeks...... and as
for the summer, what a PITA!!
--

Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Chairman, Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director
101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk
1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer!
Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT
Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body shell, being bobbed and modded.....

Hi,

If you find someone with an SQL CD, you van install the management tools
without the database server component. This will then be able to manage an
MSDE environment - I was doing it yesterday with a Sophos Antivirus database
that runs on MSDE.

Cheers!
Graham Carter
Carter Computer Services
Harare
Zimbabwe

"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 23:40:52 +0000, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >How about using MS SQL Server Express on the local machines? Assuming
> >they are up to spec - can be configured to deny remote connections
> >(default in fact I think).
>
> do you mean MSDE?
>
> while it works, its not very easy to use (especially if youre a total
> newbie to sql) as you dont get any of the graphical bits which make it
> a lot easier and more straightforward.
>
> As a school technician - if any of my schools wanted to start teaching
> pupils SQL i'd set up mysql server on an old server or machine
> specifically for this job and then let them at it with mysql
> administrator and query browser.
> You can set up different user permissions to aspects of the databases
> and the administrator and backing up and restoring is very simple so
> you can let them do whatever they like and then put test data back in.
>
> At uni, I was tought SQL using MS SQL server and having access to the
> enterprise manager and sql analyser made it much clearer.