OT(ish): Hug a Hummer

Who says hybrid cars are better for the environment....

http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml
--

Simon Isaacs

"Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote"
George Jean Nathan (1882-1955)

ROT13 me....

On 2006-11-05, Simon Isaacs <[email protected]> wrote:

> Who says hybrid cars are better for the environment....

Yeah, not impressed with them either, but then they are comparing the
initial batch of overly-complex hybrids with a simple car that's made
from bits of other cars. According to the author of the report;

"It would be totally different in three years. The hybrids will look
significantly better. The new hybrids they are developing now the new
ones that I've seen, Prius III and Prius IV are so much more
simplified. They'll do what the current versions do, but with far less
complexity, lighter motors, more recyclable parts, and longer lasting
components. The current Prius, for all intents and purposes, will be
the Model T."

The basic observation though was that the more complex a car is, the
more environmentally expensive it is from cradle to grave. Roll on
the Defender!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On 2006-11-05, Simon Isaacs <[email protected]> wrote:

> Who says hybrid cars are better for the environment....

Original report is here;

http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

Most of it is a fairly comprehensive list of individual vehicles,
although only ones available in the states, so no Defender.

Range Rover is dwarfed by cars like VW Phaeton and Audi Allroad.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Well if the worst comes to the worst I expect I shall have to replace the
engine of my series with a more efficient generator and then figure out how
to replace the gearbox with an electic motor supplying power to the diffs,
notwithstaning a few batteries here and there.


--
Larry
Series 3 Rust and Holes

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2006-11-05, Simon Isaacs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Who says hybrid cars are better for the environment....
>
> Yeah, not impressed with them either, but then they are comparing the
> initial batch of overly-complex hybrids with a simple car that's made
> from bits of other cars. According to the author of the report;
>
> "It would be totally different in three years. The hybrids will look
> significantly better. The new hybrids they are developing now the new
> ones that I've seen, Prius III and Prius IV are so much more
> simplified. They'll do what the current versions do, but with far less
> complexity, lighter motors, more recyclable parts, and longer lasting
> components. The current Prius, for all intents and purposes, will be
> the Model T."
>
> The basic observation though was that the more complex a car is, the
> more environmentally expensive it is from cradle to grave. Roll on
> the Defender!
>
> --
> Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On 2006-11-06, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well if the worst comes to the worst I expect I shall have to replace the
> engine of my series with a more efficient generator and then figure out how
> to replace the gearbox with an electic motor supplying power to the diffs,
> notwithstaning a few batteries here and there.

There was an electric Series vehicle taken out into the mojahve (sp?)
desert in the US some time ago and did pretty well, big batteries and
a generator to charge them. It was made using fairly basic technology
but it did very well, more torque than the original engine. There was
a web page about it but I've lost the link. Some deft googling might
bring it back up if you want to try.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Ian Rawlings wrote:

> There was an electric Series vehicle taken out into the mojahve (sp?)
> desert in the US some time ago and did pretty well, big batteries and
> a generator to charge them. It was made using fairly basic technology
> but it did very well, more torque than the original engine. There was
> a web page about it but I've lost the link. Some deft googling might
> bring it back up if you want to try.
The latest electric motors, Brushless DC, Permanent magnet field jobbies
have energy conversion efficiencies of 95% plus...

They need some clever electronics to drive them, but there is a price to
pay for everything.

Steve
>

On or around Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:51:35 +0000, steve
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Ian Rawlings wrote:
>
>> There was an electric Series vehicle taken out into the mojahve (sp?)
>> desert in the US some time ago and did pretty well, big batteries and
>> a generator to charge them. It was made using fairly basic technology
>> but it did very well, more torque than the original engine. There was
>> a web page about it but I've lost the link. Some deft googling might
>> bring it back up if you want to try.
>The latest electric motors, Brushless DC, Permanent magnet field jobbies
>have energy conversion efficiencies of 95% plus...
>
>They need some clever electronics to drive them, but there is a price to
>pay for everything.

a bit like the modern petrol and diesel engines, then...

Fuel cells are also supposed to give something over 90%, ISTR.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength
and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by
telephoning the police
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

On 2006-11-06, steve <[email protected]> wrote:

> The latest electric motors, Brushless DC, Permanent magnet field jobbies
> have energy conversion efficiencies of 95% plus...

Well I did the bit of deft googling mentioned and the electric series
landy is here;

http://www.evparts.com/about/index.php?show=roverFaceOff.ihtml

As a quick summary, they replaced the engine in a 1971 Series IIA 88"
with an electric job but kept the transmission including transfer case
the same, and put it up against a conventional 1969 Series IIA 88"
with a 2-1/4 litre, 4 cyl. petrol engine. Both had ARB air lockers,
the same shock absorbers, same wheels and tyres. They then took it
into the Moab 4x4 trails in Utah.

No mention of the range though. The web page states that it was
covered in the January 2000 issue of LRM in the UK.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Austin Shackles wrote:

> Fuel cells are also supposed to give something over 90%, ISTR.

Wikipedia says
Fuel cell vehicles running on compressed hydrogen may have a
power-plant-to-wheel efficiency of 22% if the hydrogen is stored as
high-pressure gas, and 17% if it is stored as liquid hydrogen."

which is quoted from
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E04.pdf

Steve

On or around Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:15:11 +0000, steve Taylor
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>> Fuel cells are also supposed to give something over 90%, ISTR.
>
>Wikipedia says
>Fuel cell vehicles running on compressed hydrogen may have a
>power-plant-to-wheel efficiency of 22% if the hydrogen is stored as
>high-pressure gas, and 17% if it is stored as liquid hydrogen."
>
>which is quoted from
>http://www.efcf.com/reports/E04.pdf
>

hmmm. ISTR reading that theoretical efficiency of a fuel cell is much
higher than that. either the practice doesn't live up to the theory, or
there are a lot of losses elsewhere.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII

On 2006-11-06, Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> hmmm. ISTR reading that theoretical efficiency of a fuel cell is much
> higher than that. either the practice doesn't live up to the theory, or
> there are a lot of losses elsewhere.

Sure it wasn't the efficiency of the fuel cell itself, i.e. it's 90%
efficient because what you get out of it is 90% of what went in when
you add the cost of getting it in there? I don't see how a "fuel
cell" could be "90% efficient" in any other way as it's just a fuel
cell, the efficiency in converting what it contains into something
useful is entirely down to the device the fuel cell feeds and not the
cell itself.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On or around Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:23:36 +0000, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On 2006-11-06, Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> hmmm. ISTR reading that theoretical efficiency of a fuel cell is much
>> higher than that. either the practice doesn't live up to the theory, or
>> there are a lot of losses elsewhere.
>
>Sure it wasn't the efficiency of the fuel cell itself, i.e. it's 90%
>efficient because what you get out of it is 90% of what went in when

it was supposed to be the conversion of chemical energy to electrical
energy. Obviously, the overall efficiency of a fuel cell car is going to be
less than of the cell itself.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering
from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing
horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed."
Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard.

Well lets see:

Creating a nuclear furnace millions of miles away in space, converting that
energy into plant life, and leaving it to ferment a few million years.

serching and drilling for it, transporting it around the world, refining it
and then converting it back to energy. Anythings gotta be more efficient
than that


--
Larry
Series 3 Rust and Holes
"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Mon, 6 Nov 2006 18:23:36 +0000, Ian Rawlings
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>On 2006-11-06, Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> it was supposed to be the conversion of chemical energy to electrical
> energy. Obviously, the overall efficiency of a fuel cell car is going to
> be
> less than of the cell itself.
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering
> from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing
> horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed."
> Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard.

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 13:18:44 -0000, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well lets see:
>
> Creating a nuclear furnace millions of miles away in space, converting
> that
> energy into plant life, and leaving it to ferment a few million years.
>
> serching and drilling for it, transporting it around the world, refining
> it
> and then converting it back to energy. Anythings gotta be more efficient
> than that

'hamster' wheels for ASBOs?

--
William Tasso

Land Rover - 110 V8
Discovery - V8

On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:15:26 +0000, Ian Rawlings <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2006-11-06, Larry <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well if the worst comes to the worst I expect I shall have to replace the
>> engine of my series with a more efficient generator and then figure out how
>> to replace the gearbox with an electic motor supplying power to the diffs,
>> notwithstaning a few batteries here and there.
>
>There was an electric Series vehicle taken out into the mojahve (sp?)
>desert in the US some time ago and did pretty well, big batteries and
>a generator to charge them. It was made using fairly basic technology
>but it did very well, more torque than the original engine. There was
>a web page about it but I've lost the link. Some deft googling might
>bring it back up if you want to try.

One of the only landy mags i have somewhere has an article about a
landrover factory electric conversion on a 2A.

Doesnt look too hard!. The price of batteries puts me off though.

"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> One of the only landy mags i have somewhere has an article about a
> landrover factory electric conversion on a 2A.
>
> Doesnt look too hard!. The price of batteries puts me off though.

Electric transport's getting closer, there's a project to fly around the
world in an electric plane within 2 years, the same people who flew the
Breitling Orbiter, and Boeing is developing an electric light aircraft.
Compared with such feats, getting a Landy electrified shouldn't be hard
Greg

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > One of the only landy mags i have somewhere has an article about a
> > landrover factory electric conversion on a 2A.
> >
> > Doesnt look too hard!. The price of batteries puts me off though.
>
> Electric transport's getting closer, there's a project to fly around
the
> world in an electric plane within 2 years, the same people who flew
the
> Breitling Orbiter, and Boeing is developing an electric light
aircraft.
> Compared with such feats, getting a Landy electrified shouldn't be
hard
> Greg
>
>

Get it properly 'electrified' and at least any theif will have a
shocking experience !

AWEM